Loading...
Menu

Aptavani-8

  • Table of Contents *

Samarpan

Trimantra

Note About This Translation

Introduction to The Gnani

Who is Dada Bhagwan?

Current link for attaining the knowledge of Self-realization (Atma Gnan)

FOREWORD

INTRODUCTION
p((<>. Part One

What is the Soul? What is it like?

Part Two

Who Am I ? How To Know This?

Special note to the reader

Aptavani – 8

Part : One
p((<>. What Is the Atma? What Must It Be Like?

What Is the Atma?

What Could the Atma Be?

Know the Atma from the Gnani

Who Has Doubts About the Existence of the Soul?

Existence of the Soul! Based on Which Qualities?

…But Whose Qualities Are They?

And What Are the Attributes of Atma?

The Jiva Even Likes Pleasure

Where There Is Feeling, There Is Chetan (Life)

…But the One That Feels Is the Pudgal (the Non-Self Complex)

To Continuously Know Is the Nature of the Soul

The Atma Is the Abode of Infinite Properties

When Will These Attributes of the Atma Manifest?

How Can You Recognize The Soul?

Familiarity With The Gnani Brings Infinite Energies

Patel Is the Neighbor and the Self Is in the Parmatma

Atma: Sakaari (With Form) or Nirakari (Without Form)

Where in the Body Is the Soul Not Present?

Belief Versus Fact

The Soul Expands and Contracts According to the Receptacle

Does the Soul Re-enter the Same Body After Death?

What Is Death? What Happens After Death?

So Many Adjustments of Nature

The Balance Sheet of the Current Life Dictates the Next Life- Form

Moksha Is Needed by Those Who…

These Are the Laws of Nature

How Long Will the Process of Rebirth Take?

The Same Old Routine Life After Life

The Planning Is the Origin of Karma

Planning in the Past Life; Effect in This Life

…And the Decisions Remain

With the Atma…

Here, a Guarantee of Just One More Life!

Illusion Is the Cause of Birth and Death

Forces of Discharge Cause Charging in Ignorance

Causes Result in the Cycles of Birth and Death

The Gnani Destroys the Cycle of Birth and Death

Five Senses Only for One More Life!

How Long Does the Relationship With the Subtle Body Last?

Who Is Stuck onto Whom?

The Atma Is Pure; Only the Belief Is Wrong

How Can There Be a Coming and Going for That Which Is Eternal?

The First in the World…?

Who Will Remove the Tangled Belief in Circumstances?

That Is Why Gnanis Call It ‘No Beginning, No End’!

How Can There Be a Beginning for the Eternal?

The Integrity of Arrangement of the Worldly Life Forms

The Puzzle of the Creation and Dissolution of the World

That Creation Is Itself Science

The Elements With Form Are Visible in This Universe

It Is the Same, Whenever You Look at It…

From the State of No Beginning With an End to a Beginning of Eternity

Changing of Circumstances Is the Nature of the World

Nature’s Mysterious Planning

Ultimately the Solution Will Come Through the Gnani

Moksha Is Certain: the Time for Moksha Is Not

Bringing an End to the Ego, The Vitarag Way

Regularity After Self-Realization

It Is One’s Nature to Ascend Higher, but When?

Downwards Because of the Ego

From Human to Lower Life-Form

Thereafter It Goes to Moksha

To Wander from Realm to Realm Is Nature’s Law

Illusion Creates Differences

The Divine and Extraordinary Intent of Jagat Kalyan

That Is When the Light of Gnan Shines

Only The Gnani Sheds Light on the Reality of the World

The Atma the World Understands

In the Vitarags’ Vision, the Atma Is…

Mishra Chetan Then Becomes Mechanical

Egoism, but Still in the Form of a Tool!

What Is ‘I’ as an Element?

Should You Know Atmagnan? Or…

…Which Is the Easier Method?

Even With Complete Ignorance, One Can Find the Atma!

The World – As It Is

Veda Is Theoretical, Science Is Practical

The Gnani Is Evidence of Moksha

Even the Word Is Temporary

Even the Means to Attain the Self Is Vikalp

Vikalp Foils the Final Opportunity

When One Becomes Intellect-Free, One Can Become One With All

Sa-iti, Only Through Vignan – the Science of Separation

From Whom Do We Attain the Atma?

Just One Staircase but Different Steps

Neither Dualistic, Nor Non-Dualistic, The Atma Is Dualistic – Non-Dualistic

Dualism – Non-Dualism; Both Are Dualities

When Does the Experience of Non-Dualism Occur?

Become Non-Dualistic: Rise Above Duality!

What Compassion Towards Understanding the Truth!

Insistence on a Single Viewpoint Obstructs Atmagnan

Brahma Is Satya, the World Is Also Satya, but…

You Will Have to Understand the Facts

Having Attained the Eternal Truth, the Relative Truth Remains

Ignorance Shrouds the Brahma

The Difference between the Vision of God and the Vision of the Self

First Comes Brahmanishtha, Then Atmanishtha!

Brahma Is Even Beyond Words

Praise to Such a Vision!

The Self Is Attained at the Feet of the Gnani Purush

Change of Vision Leads to the Experience of One’s Changed State

One Is Shiva, but Because of Illusion, One Is Jiva

Only the Expert Can Cause the Separation

Jiva and Atma: Neither Separate Nor Connected

‘I’, ‘Bavo’, ‘Mangaldas’

Only That Awareness Is Needed

After Atmagnan, One Is Immortal

The Separation Disappears When Illusion Leaves

Keeping Separation of I-You With God Does Not Lead to Self-Realization

…But the Path Is Indeed the Same

Doing-Suffering Is the State of the Jiva

When Does the Contradictory Worldly Life End?

Only The Gnani Can Free You from Wrong Beliefs

So Many Consequences of the Illusion

One Element: Many States

Worship The Liberated Purush, For Liberation

Attributes of the New Changed State

‘You’ Attain Your Own Completion, Through the Nimit of the Gnani

Conviction of Parmatma Leads to the Absolute

Every Soul Is a Separate Entity Even in Siddha Kshetra

It Will Have to Be Scientific

There Is No Merging of Souls

If Light Merges With Light, What Is Left of You?

Constant Immersion in Eternal Bliss – That Is Moksha!

The Experience of the Bliss of the Self in Siddha-Gati

One by Nature but Separate in Existence

The Soul Cannot Be Divided

Can You Ever Make a Rupee from a Pai?

The Real Understanding of the Omnipresent

The Atma Fills the Space It is in

When The Prameya is The Universe, The Pramaata is Parmatma!

Omnipresent, by Relative Viewpoint

Is There Atma Everywhere in the World?

Original Revelation Through the Exact Vision

Is the Atma Without Attributes or With Infinite Attributes?

In This World, Nothing Is Without Attributes

Ultimately, Only the Prakruti’s Gunas Afforded

Symbols from the Perspective of Worldly and Non-Worldly Vision

Moksha Means to Remain and Grow in the Attribute of the Self

Understanding Correctness from the Gnani

The Atma’s Bondage

When You Find the Giver of Moksha, You Find Moksha

Whose Intention Is to Attain Moksha?

….Even the Coming and Going Belong to the Ego

There Is No Pain for Atma Swaroop

Dualities Perpetuate Bondage

It Is Worth it, If Moksha Is Procured

Is Moksha Possible for Every ‘atma’?

Namo Siddhanam – The Goal of Worship

No Activity for Siddha; Nevertheless There Is Action

Siddha Kshetra – What a Marvel!

The Wondrous Seat of the Siddhas – The Ultimate Goal

Part Two
p((<>. Who Am I? How Can I Know That?

Now How Can the Cycle End?

The One That Sees the Temporary, Is the Permanent

What Are Your Qualities? Mistakes Even in That

The Hidden Self, Wondrous, Wondrous!

The Fundamental Mistake Is the Belief

Who Destroys This Illusion?

The Difference between Temporary and Permanent

Illusion of the Permanent in the State of the Temporary

The Absolute Soul Sends Light and Eternal Bliss

Worship of the Nature of the Self Procures Bliss of the Self

So Stands the Nature of the World

Doership Itself Is Illusion

Not Heard, Not Believed, Not Known the Atma, Then…

The Gnani Dissolves Spiritual Darkness

The Gnani Gives the Experience of the Atma

Constant Uninterrupted Thoughts About the Atma Are Useful

He Cannot Be A Giver of Moksha If He Does Not Give Moksha

Relentless Mistake in the Definition of the Self Through the Ages

All Instruments of Freedom Have Become a Bondage

‘I-ness’ Cannot End Through Your Efforts

Will the Endeavor to Understand be Fruitful?

Have You Received Another’s Mail?

Detachment to the Worldly Life Attained With Grace

Confusion Disperses With Complete Explanations

Forgetting the Self in Relation

The Belief About Atma Changed

Liberation Demands Siddhantik Understanding

A State of Bliss Prevails in the State of the Self

In This Time, Do Efforts Pay Off?

Not Action, but Awareness Needs to Be Changed

No Adversity in Development Towards the Atma

Take Advantage of the Living Gnani Purush

Seeking Without Understanding, To What Avail?

Obstructive Causes in Spirituality

Where Is the Spiritual Path in This World?

When Demerit Karma Is Destroyed, Your Awareness Increases

Zero Has No Value Without the One

The Atma Is Way Beyond the Observer of Thoughts

The Tangled State of Experience

Not the Believed but the Known Is Needed

Without The Gnani, Endless Efforts Are Futile

When Can You See Chetan in the World?

As the Belief of ‘I am this body’ Dispels, the Experience of the Atma Is Attained

Wow! How Wonderful Is Atmagnan!

How Powerful the Knower Is!

The Invisible Realizes The Invisible

Experience Is Different; Self-Realization Is Different

Only the Experienced Gives One the Experience of the Atma

If It Does Not Last, It Is Not the Experience

Experience, Then Comes Conduct

The ‘I’ Attains the Pure Form of the Self

The Ego Exists As Long As There Is Ignorance

The Experience of the Atma; Completely Different from All Other Experiences

That Is When the Facts Are Understood

Atmagnan from The Gnani

The Conviction of Attaining the Atma

Bound Through Belief…

Ultimately, Liberation Only Attained Through Becoming Atmaroop

The Body Goes, but Not The Belief

When the Belief Changes, the Karma Leave

Destruction of Belief With Belief

The Principle of Self-Realization Through an Independent Vision

Atma and Non-Atma Separated Through The Gnani’s Vidhi

Attainment of Gnan Results Through Deep Intent

…Then Obstacles to Gnan Are Destroyed

That Is When the Atma Is Experienced in Conduct

Understanding the Word ‘Shuddhatma’

Shuddhatma Cannot Be Attained Through Saying ‘Sohum’

After Becoming Pure, One Can Say ‘Pure Soul’

Can You Light with a Real Lamp or a Picture of a Lamp?

Shuddhatma Cannot Be Attained Through Chanting

Factionalism Is the Unnatural State

When the Wrong Belief Goes, There Is Oneness With God

Say Shuddhatma – Pure Soul, for Purity to Prevail

The Intent of Doership Leads to Bondage of Karma

Pure: Impure – From Which Perspective?

‘What Is’ – That You Must Know (!) But…

‘What Is Not’- How Do We Know This?

One Attains Moksha Leisurely in the Lift of the Akram Path

Meeting the Gnani Is Itself the Required Qualification

The Desire to Know Gives the Ultimate Thing

The Incomparable Powers of the Akram Path

Oh! To Know The Atma Is To…

It Can Be Known Through the Gnani’s Gnan of Separation

The Worldly Life Ends Through Vitarag Vision

Without a Change in Vision, Everything Is Meaningless

Through the Grace of the Gnani, the Vision Will Change

Internalize the Senses or Become the Atma?

They Are All Mechanical Adjustments

The Ego Is the Cause of All Effects

How Can Doubts About the Pure Soul Be Dispelled?

The Vision Changes; Not the Atma

The Method for the Final Solution Is Different

Gnan Opens Up the Truth

Only Ignorance Influences the Entire Worldly Life

Who Is the Doer of Karma?

In Whom Does the Impurity Arise?

Worldly Atma Mistaken for The Absolute Atma

Discharge of Tangible Effects but Bondage Through Belief

Only the Living Gnani Can Illuminate the Truth

The Inexpressible Experience of the Original Element

The Atma Through the Vision of the Atma

The Goldsmith’s Vision Is Always on the Gold

The Scientific Differences between the Real and the Relative

The Gnani Illuminates the Siddhant Naturally

The Beginning and the End of the World in the Gnani’s Knowledge

When the Vision Becomes Pure, It Becomes Absorbed in the Pure

One’s Salvation Is Through the Awareness of the Main Self Form

GLOSSARY

  • www.dadabhagwan.org *

Aptavani-8

As expounded by the Gnani Purush “Dada Bhagwan”

Originally Compiled in Gujarati by : Dr. Niruben Amin

Samarpan

Offering of Surrender

Anantkaad vahi gayo, na thhayoo Atmadarshan,

Infinite eras of time have gone by, and yet the Vision (darshan) of the Atma has not occurred,

Pragat Gnani vina, kaun kholey sudarshan?

Without a manifest living Gnani, who will unveil the pure Vision?

Gnani tana darshaney, madi jaaya jo nijdarshan,

If upon meeting the Gnani, the Vision of the Atma (the Self) is attained,

Aho! Aho! Anupama abheda vishwadarshan!

Amazing! Amazing! The universal Vision of oneness that is beyond accolades!

Drashti padataa ja, avadaa nu savadu bataavey,

Upon the very first glance, shows He the right within the wrong,

Antardaah ni avirata sindari bujhaavey.

Extinguishing the relentlessly burning rope of inner turmoil.

Thokaro haash atki, thhata Gnan ujaashey,

Ah! The stumbling has ceased with the Light of Gnan,

Sansari dukh abhaav, sanatan sukh suvaasey.

Indifference towards worldly pain, eternal bliss fragrance abounds.

Gnani ney pragatyoo jey, aa darshan niravaranu,

The completely unveiled Vision, which has manifest within the Gnani,

Anant bhedey, pradeshey, Atmatattva jhadakyoo.

At infinite locations and infinite unveiling, the element of the Atma alights.

Nij na dosho dekhaadey, sookshmatarey sookshmatamey,

Showing the faults of the self, at subtler and subtlest level,

Darshan kevad poogyu, atakyu Gnan chaar anshey.

The Absolute Vision attained, lacking four degrees of Absolute Knowledge.

Aho aa darshaney, khoolya mokshamarg dushamkaadey,

Oh Wonder! With this Vision, opens the path of liberation in the age of darkness (Kaliyug),

Pratyek pagley paathharyaa prakash param hitey,

Kindled He the Light for the ultimate absolute salvation at every step,

Bandhan todaavatu, drashti badaltu Dada Darshan!

This Vision of Dada breaks shackles, changes vision!

Aptavani roopey jagakalyan arthey samarpan.

Is offered up for the salvation of the world through this Aptavani.

Trimantra

The Three Mantras that Destroy All Obstacles in Life

Namo Vitaragaya

I bow to the One who is absolutely free from all attachment and abhorrence

Namo Arihantanam

I bow to the living One who has annihilated all internal enemies of anger, pride, deceit and greed

Namo Siddhanam

I bow to the Ones who have attained the state of total and final liberation

Namo Aayariyanam

I bow to the Self-realized masters who impart knowledge of liberation to others

Namo Uvazzayanam

I bow to those who have received the Knowledge of the Self and are helping others attain the same

Namo Loye Savva Sahunam

I bow to all saints everywhere who have received the Knowledge of the Self

Eso Pancha Namukkaro

These five salutations

Savva Pavappanasano

Destroy all demerit karma

Mangalanam cha Savvesim

Of all that is auspicious

Padhamam Havai Mangalam

This is the highest

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

I bow to all who have attained the absolute Self in human form

Om Namah Shivaya

I bow to all human beings who have become instruments for salvation of the world

Jai Sat Chit Anand

Awareness of the Eternal is Bliss

Note About This Translation

The Gnani Purush Ambalal M. Patel, also commonly known as Dadashri or Dada, had said that it would be impossible to translate his satsangs and the knowledge about the Science of Self-realization verbatim into English because some of the meanings would be lost in the process. Therefore, in order to understand precisely the science of Akram Vignan and Self-realization He stressed the importance of learning Gujarati.

Dadashri did however grant his blessings to translate his words into English and other languages so that spiritual seekers could benefit to a certain degree and later progress through their own efforts.

This is a humble attempt to present to the world, the essence of His Knowledge. This is not a literal translation but great care has been taken to preserve His original words and the essence of His message. For certain Gujarati words, several English words or even sentences are needed to convey the exact meaning; hence, many Gujarati words have been retained within the English text for better reading flow. At the first encounter, the Gujarati word will be italicized followed by an immediate explanation of its meaning in brackets. Thereafter the Gujarati word will be used in the text that follows. This serves as a two-fold benefit: firstly ease of translation and reading and secondly it will make the reader more familiar with the Gujarati words critical for a deeper understanding of this science. A glossary of all the Gujarati words is provided at the back of the book. For additional glossary, visit our website at :

www.dadabhagwan.org

Many people have worked diligently towards achieving this goal and we thank them all. Please note that any errors encountered in this translation are entirely those of the translators.

Introduction to The Gnani

One June evening, in 1958 at around six o’clock, Ambalal Muljibhai Patel, a family man, and a contractor by profession, was sitting on a bench on the busy platform number three at Surat’s train station. Surat is a city in south Gujarat, a western state in India. What happened within the next forty-eight minutes was phenomenal. Spontaneous Self-realization occurred within Ambalal M. Patel. During this event, his ego completely melted and from that moment onwards, he became completely detached from all of Ambalal’s thoughts, speech, and actions. He became the Lord’s living instrument for the salvation of humankind, through the path of knowledge. He called this Lord, ‘Dada Bhagwan.’ To everyone he met, he would say, “This Lord, Dada Bhagwan is fully manifested within me. He also resides within all living beings. The difference is that within me He is completely expressed and in you, he has yet to manifest.”

Who are we? What is God? Who runs this world? What is karma? What is liberation? Etc. All the world’s spiritual questions were answered during this event. Thus, nature offered absolute vision to the world through the medium of Shree Ambalal Muljibhai Patel.

Ambalal was born in Tarasali, a suburb of Baroda and was later raised in Bhadran, Gujarat. His wife’s name was Hiraba. Although he was a contractor by profession, his life at home and his interactions with everyone around him were exemplary, even prior to his Self-realization. After becoming Self-realized and attaining the state of a Gnani, (The Awakened One, Jnani in Hindi), his body became a ‘public charitable trust.’

Throughout his entire life, he lived by the principle that there should not be any commerce in religion, and in all commerce, there must be religion. He also never took money from anyone for his own use. He used the profits from his business to take his devotees for pilgrimages to various parts of India.

His words became the foundation for the new, direct, and step-less path to Self-realization called Akram Vignan. Through his divine original scientific experiment (The Gnan Vidhi), he imparted this knowledge to others within two hours. Thousands have received his grace through this process and thousands continue to do so even now. ‘Akram’ means without steps; an elevator path or a shortcut, whereas ‘Kram’ means an orderly, step-by-step spiritual path. Akram is now recognized as a direct shortcut to the bliss of the Self.

Who is Dada Bhagwan?

When he explained to others who ‘Dada Bhagwan’ is, he would say : “What you see here is not ‘Dada Bhagwan’. What you see is ‘A. M. Patel.’ I am a Gnani Purush and ‘He’ that is manifested within me, is ‘Dada Bhagwan’. He is the Lord within. He is within you and everyone else. He has not yet manifested within you, whereas within me he is fully manifested. I myself am not a Bhagwan. I too bow down to Dada Bhagwan within me.”

Current link for attaining the knowledge of Self-realization (Atma Gnan)

“I am personally going to impart siddhis (special spiritual powers) to a few people. After I leave, will there not be a need for them? People of future generations will need this path, will they not?”

~ Dadashri

Param Pujya Dadashri used to go from town to town, and country to country, to give satsang and impart the knowledge of the Self as well as knowledge of harmonious worldly interaction to all who came to see him. During his final days, in the fall of 1987, he gave his blessing to Dr. Niruben Amin and bestowed his special siddhis upon her, to continue his work. “You will have to become a mother to this whole world, Niruben” He told her as he blessed her. There was no doubt in Dadashri’s mind that Niruben was destined to be just that. She had served him with utmost devotion day and night for over twenty years. Dadashri in turn had molded her and prepared her to take on this monumental task.

From the time of Pujya Dadashri’s mortal departure on January 2 1988 to her own mortal departure on March 19th 2006, Pujya Niruma as she lovingly came to be called by thousands remained true to her promise to Dadashri to carry on his mission of the world’s salvation. She became Dadashri’s representative of Akram Vignan and became instrumental in spreading the knowledge of Akram Vignan throughout the world. She also became an exemplary of pure and unconditional love. Thousands of people from all walks of life and from all over the world have attained Self-realization through her and are established in the experience of the pure Soul, while carrying out their worldly duties and obligations. They experience freedom here and now, while living their daily life.

The link of Akram Gnanis now continues with the current spiritual master Pujya Deepakbhai Desai whom Pujya Dadashri had also graced with special siddhis to continue to teach the world about Atma Gnan and Akram Vignan. He was further molded and trained by Pujya Niruma who blessed him to conduct Gnan Vidhi in 2003. Dadashri had said that Deepakbhai will become the decorum that will add splendor to the Lord’s reign. Pujya Deepakbhai, in keeping with Dada’s and Niruma’s tradition travels extensively within India and abroad, giving satsangs and imparting the knowledge of the Self to all who come seeking.

Powerful words in scriptures help the seeker in increasing his desire for liberation. The knowledge of the Self is the final goal of all one’s seeking. Without the knowledge of the Self there is no liberation. This knowledge of the Self (Atma Gnan) does not exist in books. It exists in the heart of a Gnani. Hence, the knowledge of the Self can only be acquired by meeting a Gnani. Through the scientific approach of Akram Vignan, even today one can attain Atma Gnan, but it can only occur by meeting a living Atma Gnani and receiving the Atma Gnan. Only a lit candle can light another candle.

FOREWORD

Published in this book is the real Vision, about the original properties of the Atma and other eternal elements. This Vision has emerged from the speech of the Gnani Purush of Akram Vignan, who came to be known to the world as Dadashri. The book is in two parts. In Part I, the seekers pose many questions like, what is Atma? What is it like? Etc, to the Gnani Purush, who gives them complete and satisfactory answers.

In Part II, the Gnani addresses the fundamental question, Who Am I?

The reader-questioner, in his fervent desire to gain the Knowledge, is paving his way by asking questions like: How can I attain this Knowledge? How do I recognize the Self? How do I attain Self-realization? Etc…

Starting out with the doubts about the Atma’s very existence, one asks, what is the Atma? What is it like? What does it do? What is birth and death? Who takes birth and dies? What is karma? What are the four gati (realms of existence)? By what means does one secure one’s place in these gatis? What is moksha? What is Siddha gati (Final Liberation)? What are: pratishthit atma, mishra-chetan, nischetan chetan, ahamkar (ego), and all its resultant effects (vishesh parinam)? The answers to all these intricate questions have been disclosed here.

What is jiva (living entity; an embodied self)? What is Shiva (realized Atma)? What is dwaita (dualism)? What is adwaita (non-dualism)? What is Brahma (Supreme Self)? What is Parabrahma (Absolute Self)?

The dictum, Ekoham Bahusyam, ‘I am the One, and I became many.’ The omnipresence of Atma, the presence of God in every particle, the meaning of the Vedas and Science etc. – Are all truths of Vedanta that will open up here.

This gives you the true, primary but basic, understanding of the spirituality from which one has to pave the entire path for moksha (final liberation). The slightest of misinterpretation, will change one’s course, on the path that is parallel to the Gnani’s. Such a diversion will change the destination, so that after having traveled on the path for so many millions of miles, instead of reaching the destination, one finds oneself in a forsaken place.

‘I am a part of Parmatma (Absolute Soul)’ – If such an illusory belief prevails, when will you understand that You, yourself are the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma); you are independent; not a fraction, but the complete Self? And if it is not in your belief to begin with, then how can you attain such a state? There are so many of these illusory beliefs. They have come about as a result of secular and orthodox thought, which makes one’s conduct move away from the real Vision.

The essence of all scriptures, spiritual discipline, and the practice of spirituality is one: to secure the awareness of one’s own Atma (Self).

The real Atma truly is pure, but you hold a tuber of wrong belief, which only the living Gnani Purush can unravel. That which can never be attained even over millions of lifetimes, is finally made possible within an hour through the Gnani.

Millions of questions come from those who doubt, and from those who seek Self-realization. Nevertheless, the Gnani’s answers are spot on; his core definitions provide for the exactness to open, which gives evidence of the Gnani’s divine and perfectly clear Vision. To put it in his own words: “I answer by seeing through Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan)”. Moreover, he does not even have the inner intent (bhaav) of ownership, of his speech. The tape-record (tape player) is doing the talking. If the self were to speak, it would come out with many mistakes. But how can a tape-record make mistakes? ‘He’ himself is the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta) of a tape-record.

For all those who are in search of Self-realization, and for all those who are deeply curious, innumerable questions related to the Atma and to the universe, have been compounded in this book. The wise aspirant will find the Eternal, elucidated for him in his own language. He will indeed experience the Eternal as it is. However, in order for him to come into this Vision and experience, he requires a Gnani. Only the living Gnani, – who resides in the absolute state of the Self – Dadashri, can give you this very experience of the Atma.

As it is, the profound discussions about Atmagnan (Self-knowledge) or Keval Gnan (Absolute Knowledge) have been fruitless when it comes to illuminating a single ray of the light of one’s own Atma. Unless you encounter a living Gnani, and unless you receive the Gnani’s Gnan, you will only dwell in words. The living Gnani’s single word, on the other hand, will pierce your heart, removing layers of infinite veils of dosh (faults) that have been, shrouding the supreme light of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)that illuminates the entire universe. So that now, that same light shines within You.

Only those who have known this incomparable Gnani’s unparalleled siddhi (energy that accomplishes the ultimate) have relished its beauty. Otherwise, how would the light of the Atma, which cannot be described with words; be illuminated with words? The compassionate Dadashri had often said, ‘The person you see before you is not Dada Bhagwan. This is A. M. Patel. Dada Bhagwan is He that has manifested within. He ( Dada Bhagwan) is the Lord of the fourteen worlds! You may ask from Him anything that you want. But you do not even know how to fill that tender (request)!’ And that is a fact! Rather than asking for the domain of the whole universe, which is in His possession, the unfortunate seeker fills out a tender for a piece of plot (material things) instead. If at the time, one could have read the Gnani’s heart, it would have been overflowing with infinite compassion!

The existing wrong beliefs about the Atma (the Self), pushes one millions of miles away from the absolute truth. Regardless of not having attained Atmagnan (Self-realization), if you can manage to understand the Self, through that which the Gnani Purush has himself Seen, Known and Experienced, you will be halted from traveling in the wrong direction. In this very book, the revered Dadashri, from his own Gnan, expresses as it is, how he has seen, known, and experienced the swaroop (nature; form) of the Atma and the swaroop of the world. And for those who progress on the spiritual path, it will prove very useful for understanding the Atma.

The Gnani Purush’s speech flows naturally. It is dependent on the nimit (questioner) and on the circumstances. Should you come across any discrepancies or shortcomings in this book, it is an error in the compilation, made entirely on our part, and never in the words of the Gnani Purush. And for that, we pray for your forgiveness.

– Dr. Niruben Amin

INTRODUCTION

Part One

What is the Soul? What is it like?

Not being able to comprehend the subtlest and the most profound element in the universe, which is your own real form (swaroop; the Self); what You are yourself, thinkers are confounded by endless thoughts like: The Atma is like this, or is it like that? Is it in the form of light? And what would its illumination be like! The true Vision (darshan), that transcends imagination, the one that only the Gnani Purush has envisaged, can only be attained through him. For those who did not have the opportunity to meet him in person, this particular volume contains his spoken Knowledge (Gnan vani), which shows the real path, and leads one further and further along it.

The Self is truly who one is, and to know this is to know the Atma. And that is what you need to know.

He that has Known, Seen, Experienced and permanently lived in the swaroop (real form; the Self) of the Atma that is beyond doubt and imagination of shape or form; has said that it is beyond form (aakruti) and formlessness (niraakruti). The Atma’s real form is independent (niralumb) and illuminating (prakashak). It is not dependent on either time or place. That is the kind of Atma the Gnani dwells in. He is separate, the body is separate, and he interacts with the body as a neighbor.

No one, in the world is naastik (without existence). The awareness of one’s astitva (existence); I am, is there. Everyone with this awareness is aastik (with existence). The Atma has existence (astitva); it has elemental reality (vastutva) and completeness ( purnatva). Every living being has awareness of its existence (astitva); a rare person has the awareness of his reality (vastutva), and completeness (purnatva) is the reward of knowing one’s own real Self. Only the Knower of separation (Bheda-Gnani) can impart the awareness of one’s own real Self (vastutva), through his Knowledge of separation.

In giving credence to the conviction (pratiti) about the Atma, the Gnani says that, just as fragrance exposes the existence ( astitva) of perfume, the Atma – although invisible (aroopi) – can be discerned by its inherent blissful nature. The very state of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) is infinite (anant) Knowledge (Gnan), infinite Vision (Darshan), infinite Energy (shakti), and infinite bliss (sukh). This is the You (the Self). But it is only after you have the realization of your own real form (swaroop),that all these qualities will be uncovered.

You can recognize the difference between chetan (Atma; the Self) and jada (non-Atma; inanimate) by their intrinsic properties ( gunadharma). Knowledge-Vision (Gnan-Darshan), to See and to Know, is the real nature (swabhav) of Atma (chetan; the Self). No other eternal element shares the same attribute (gunadharma).

Those who doubt the existence of Soul (jiva) are like people that would say, ‘there is no tongue in my mouth’. They are essentially exposing the existence of their own Atma (vastutva astitva). The one, who creates the doubt about Soul, is indeed the self. Is it possible for the nonliving (jada; non-Atma) to have doubt?

Even in the darkness, the Soul (jiva) will recognize all the individual ingredients of the spoonful of shrikhand (sweet yogurt pudding) in the mouth. The sensory nerves carry the message, but the One who knows, is the Atma. It is the soul (jiva) itself that has always been the one to desire and seek bliss.

Where there is feeling; there is Atma (Self), and where there is no feeling there is no Atma. And yet, the Atma has no feeling. It is the pudgal (the physical gross and subtle non-Self complex) that has feeling. That which moves, speaks, eats and drinks is not Atma ( chetan), but where there is any knowledge or ignorance; sympathy or feeling, there is chetan (Atma, Self).

The Atma is spread throughout the entire body. Where pain is felt; the Atma is present. Only in the nails and in the hair the Atma is absent. The abode of the gross mind (sthool mun) is in the heart. Whereas the subtle mind (sookshma mun) is located between the two eyebrows, two and a half inches deep.

Because of the Atma’s nature and capability to expand and contract (sankoch-vikaasshil), whenever a part of the body is severed or during anesthesia, the Atma moves away from that area.

In all the three stages of life; Oh! In the phases of infinite lifetimes of birth and death, the Atma always remains the same: immortal. It exists in its own nature (swabhav) infinitely. For innumerable births the Atma has had to accompany the body-complex (pudgal). Once the wrong belief (about one’s real identity) is gone, one becomes independent. Completely independent! In fact neither has the non-Self body complex (pudgal) cohered to the Atma, nor has the Atma cohered to the body complex. The body-complex (pudgal) is the extra, unique result ( vishesh parinam) of the circumstances of the elemental Atma and the elemental subatomic particle (parmanu) coming together. The subsequent result of this is the creation of the mind-speech-body complex (prakruti),withits respectiveconstituents of: the principle ego, anger, pride, deceit and greed, and hence the worldly life (sansar) is created. The real Atma in all this is absolutely passive (akriya). Since the body-complex (pudgal) is active (sakriya), and because of ignorance (agnanta), an illusion of the Atma as being the doer is created. This shackle of the mind-speech-body complex (prakruti) has made a prisoner of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)! Even so, where there is bondage (bandhan), there is also liberation (moksha). With the intent of ignorance ( agnan bhaav), and the intent of illusion (bhranti bhaav), comes bondage. And with the intent of Knowledge (Gnan bhaav), there is liberation!When the illusion, about doership and about the Self, breaks one no longer is the doer of any karma. Thereafter, the eternal awareness of, I am myself the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) prevails, and one becomes completely free and independent in every way.

The root cause of birth and death is ignorance (agnan). And with Gnan (knowledge of Atma), there is liberation; it is the ego that undergoes the cycle of birth and death. And birth in a place of creation (yoni) is dependent on scientific circumstantial evidence. There is no single independent entity in all this – not even God!

The false attribution (aropit bhaav),of ‘I am Chandubhai’ (reader to insert their own name here) together with theworldly intent(sansari bhaav), create the causal body (karan sharira), which in turn, initiate the coming together of other parliamentary members (the inner working component of the mind, intellect, chit and ego), to bring about a result that creates the effect body. After they arrive at a decision, the members leave. The decisions that are left behind; begin to formulate and come into effect one by one.

When the Atma leaves the physical body, even the subtle body or causal body, with its anger, pride, deceit and greed, also leaves with it. The causal body, in the next life, becomes the effective body. The electrical body (tejas sharira) is only there, as far as a balance of remaining karmas exists, that is to say, it is present throughout the entire avatar (lifetime). And it will stay with the Atma all the way until it attains the final liberation (moksha).

There can never be an independent power in the discharge (of karma), but even in the charging, the atma has no independent power. Because of the push from the discharging karma of the past, a new karma becomes charged, and this is all because of ignorance (agnanta). The charging of karma, in the previous lifetime, is in the form of an arranged plan, which in this lifetime takes shape in the form of discharge. Only in the planning stage (charging of karma) can any changes be made. Once it has taken shape, nothing can be altered. Any changes in this lifetime, will come to fruition in the next one, and if the planning itself comes to a halt, then one attains final liberation (moksha).

The theory of evolution has validity in the notion that a single-sensed organism (ekendriya) evolves into a human being. However, once the human condition is reached, the ego raises its head; becoming the doer, and goes on to do credit-debit of merit karma (punya) and demerit karma (paap). The tendencies (vruttis) incurred in human life, will determine the portal of entry into any one of the four life forms (bestial, human, demonic or divine). Upon attaining the human form, for eight lifetimes at the most, one wanders around from yoni (life-form) toyoni, paying off the balance of karma at each place, before returning to the human form. The end to the roaming can only happen after Atmagnan (Self-realization)! After Atmagnan, everything flows in an orderly sequence. If it did not happen in a systematic way, then would it not be considered as being in the hands of fate (niyati)? The timing for the living entity (jiva; self) to enter the human form for the very first time is predetermined. But because the ego arises in the human life-form, there are complications, and as a result, it wanders around in the four realms of existence (gati): human, animal, infernal and celestial. No matter how overwhelmed one is by the pressure of circumstances, if the ego can be steered in the direction of liberation (moksha), only then can moksha be attained. But to turn the ego, is not an easy feat; therefore, after taking birth in the human form, the timing for liberation (moksha) remains undetermined. Only after the enlightened or right Vision ( samyak drashti) arises, can the time for liberation be determined. But here, a person conducts himself according to relative worldly knowledge and societal influence (loksangnya), and is thrown into the flowing current of worldly life (sansar). Encountering a Gnani Purush, and acting in accordance to his knowledge, one can attain moksha.

In the circumstance (saiyog) of the sun, a shadow will be cast, and in the eventof a mirror, there will be a reflection. But how much doership does the sun or the mirror possess in this? From seeing the shadow or the reflection, simply the belief changes as to ‘What has happened to ‘me’?’ As a result of the established wrong belief, the ego and the intellect (buddhi) become established. And this is the reason why the mind-speech-body complex of the non-Self (prakruti) becomes bound. In reality, the original light illuminates the ego and the intellect,which subsequently begin to illumine the mind-speech-body complex. And so the Vision (drashti) towards, and the awareness of the original light vanishes; a curtain of illusion is drawn over the original light. And believing the mind-speech-body complex’s gestures to be one’s own, one relinquishes the seat of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) and becomes and behaves as the body complex. It is like a sparrow that repeatedly pecks at its own reflection in the mirror, perceiving it to be another real sparrow. What an entrapment! How the Parmatma has been entrapped by the circumstances! In spite of it all, the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) has maintained its own true nature (swabhav), all throughout the three time periods (past, present and future).

Owing to the pressure of circumstances, a phase of the Atma’s property of knowledge has become contrary to its nature (vibhavik, unnatural). But not the real Atma (Self). In this unnatural (vibhavik) state, whatever the whim and imagination, the non-Self body complex (pudgal ) too became contrary to its nature (vibhavik),and as a result, the mind, speech and body were created, and they are bound by the rules of scientific circumstantial evidence (vyavasthit). And for that reason only, a person who comes into contact with the knower of this profound science – the Gnani Purush, can acquire the Vision of the Self through him, which leads him to the state of liberation. The story of Gajasukumar illustrates this: The father-in-law of Gajasukumar fixes a burning hot cauldron on Gajasukumar’s head (as he sat in meditation). At that moment, Gajasukumar was able to remain in the original light (as the Self) that Lord Neminath (Tirthankar), had shown him. Through the Gnan, he could see that event (saiyog) as the object to be known (gneya), and consequently he attained final liberation (moksha).

Because of the wrong belief of the Self’s identity and about doership; attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh) arises and consequently the three batteries of the mind, speech and body go on charging for the next life, and the three old batteries, according to their nature, carry on discharging. And when through the Gnani’s grace, the right belief is bestowed; one attains final liberation (moksha).

To eliminate doubt and uncertainty about the Atma’s inception or end, the Gnanis have called the Atma, anaadi-anant (without begin or end). If something is eternal, then how can it have a beginning or an end, increase or decrease? Wherein lies its origin? Where does a circle begin?

Without a beginning, how is something created? Besides, the creation and the creator are both destructible and transient.

Everything in the universe, functions according to its nature. And as a result, as many souls (jiva) on the path of evolution (samsaran marg) that enter Siddha kshetra (location for liberated Souls), that many will go from an undetermined state (avyavahar rashi), and enter the worldly state (vyavahar rashi), which preserves the integrity of the worldly life (vyavahar). If just one single soul (jiva) goes missing, Nature’s plan would come crashing down, so that today the moon, and tomorrow the sun, may be absent.

The increase and decrease of population cannot go beyond the constant of Nature’s law!

The Atma, by its very nature, is moving towards final liberation (moksha),as long as thereis no interference along the way. With auspicious (shubha) thoughts, the lighter subatomic particles (parmanu) are swept up, allowing the Atma to rise upward. Whereas, when the heavy and heavier subatomic particles are seized up, one plunges downwards, all the way into the plant life-form (vanaspatikay) – one enters into the form of a coconut tree, mango, or berry tree; bearing sweet fruit for people to eat; paying for one’s own deceit in the previous life, and becoming free from the debt karma.

Finally, after attaining awareness of the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) from the Gnani, and remaining in the awareness of the Self, while fulfilling all events related to the non-Self body complex (pudgal), it is possible to go to final liberation (moksha). Absolutely no one exerts any independent control over this scientific law!

The individual differences that appear in this world are because of illusion (bhranti), and because of assessment from the perspective of the intellect (buddhi). When seen through the Vision of the real element; from the center, there is oneness. That indeed is the Vision (darshan) of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)!

The Gnani speaks after seeing it, as it is. He will not say, it is not, to it is, and he will not say it is, to when it is not. Pertaining to the properties (guna) of the eternal element, the detached Ones (Vitarags; Enlightened ones devoid of attachment and abhorrence) have described origin (utpaad), end (vyaya) and steadiness (dhrauv); wherein to originate and to end, are the phases of the element. And to remain in the steady-state, is the intrinsic quality (guna) of the element.

People have ascribed a gross and tangible (sthool) representation to these, by enshrining the symbolic effigies of Brahmaa (creator), Vishnu (preserver) and Mahesh (destroyer)! Oh! They have even placed the Gita and Gayatri in their shrines!

Instead of understanding the subtlest meaning about what Lord Krishna said in the BhagavadGita, they worship the physical idol. Instead of chanting the Gayatri mantra, they get more satisfaction from the statue. The scientific significance is forgotten altogether, and grossly misunderstood.

The statues of Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh were installed as symbols to represent the three qualities (gunas) of, pious virtue (sattva ), energy- filled worldly activities or passions ( rajas), and darkness or sloth (tamas). Instead of getting lost in the alleys of metaphors about Truth, it is best to return home. The Gnani turns those who travel in the wrong direction, with great speed, in the right direction. He does this with the intent (bhaav) of being instrumental (a nimit) in the process and not with the intent of doership (karta bhaav). Truth can only be discovered through non-insistence (niragrahata). Insistence (aagraha) is ego. I am Chandubhai, I am his paternal uncle, I am her maternal uncle… etc. These relative truths prove to be non-truths in the real realm.

The Gnani always opens up the truth of the matter. If a person does not agree with him, the Gnani does not remain sitting on the step with him to convince him. He would say, ‘You are correct by your view point’, and would let it go. Where there is no insistence about one’s absolute truth, there is the fully illuminated state of vitaragata (a state free from attachment and abhorrence) there.

If ignorance is known, then Knowledge (Gnan) is found on the other shoreline. When the Atma is known; the non-Self body complex ( pudgal) is also known. And when the pudgal is known; the Atma can be understood. Those who study Vedanta (Hindu scriptures) are preoccupied with bringing the pudgal to a close, and have stopped at ‘Neti (na-iti), Neti…’ (This is not That…this is not That)! The Absolute (Keval) Gnanis, after first attaining their own Self-form (Atma swaroop), and having said that what remains behind, is the non-Self body complex (pudgal), have attained their liberation. In truth, you do not have to know Self-realization (Atmagnan). You have to have the awareness of your own Self-form (Atma swaroop). You gain nothing by knowing the Atma as a word.

When describing the state of oneness (abhedta), the Vedas (Hindu scriptures) employ the distinguishing intellect (bheda buddhi), but it is only through the absence of intellect (abuddhata), that the state of onenessis gained.

The Gnani Purush himself says that the Vedas are theoretical, and spiritual science is practical. Vedanta is knowledge through the medium of theintellect (buddhi), an indirect light;whereas Gnan is direct light.Where the Vedas have not reached; the Gnani has reached. The four Vedas, and the four Anuyogas (scriptures in Jainism), can point out the element (tattva) of Atma, but they cannot help one attain it.Speech that is spoken to be heard(shruta vani), can purify the chit (subtle component of vision and knowledge in the inner working complex), and make one most worthy of Gnan (Knowledge).

However, for the realization of the fundamental Truth (vastu), only the Gnani Purush as a most unique cause, through his extraordinary grace, can make happen through subtle association with his absolute consciousness! There, how can the Veda’s word-form describe the Atma which is beyond words? Veda is in the form of knowledge, and the Knower (Vetta) is in theform of Science (Vignan).

Science is effective by itself: knowledge is not! The Knower (Vetta) knows the Vedas; the Vedas do not know the Knower. All systems of philosophy, all philosophical doctrines, and all views, are the same, and they are also different. There is one staircase, but the stairs are all different. Even Lord Krishna said the Vedas were trigunatmak (description of three properties: virtue, activity, inactivity or darkness: sattva, rajas and tamas), and told Arjun to go beyond the Vedas to attain the Atma (the Self).

Vedanta (Hindu scripture) increases the intellect (buddhi). But both Vedanta and Jainism, can independently bring about Self-realization.

The Atma is neither dwaita (dualistic), nor is it adwaita (non-dualistic). The Atma is dualistic – non-dualistic (dwaita-adwaita). Dualism and non-dualism are both ego centric states (vikalp); whereas the Atma’s state is devoid of ego (nirvikalp). Dualism and non-dualism are both two-sided phenomenon (dwandva); whereas the Atma is beyond the dualities (dwandvatita). As long as one suffers the effects of the worldly life (sansar), it is not possible to believe: ‘I am non-dualistic ( adwaita)’. Non-dualism is not support-free (niradhar), nor is it absolute (nirpeksha). It is relative to dualism (dwaita).

From the relative viewpoint the atma (the self) is dualistic, and by the realviewpoint, the Atma (Self) isnon-dualistic. So therefore, the Gnanis have called the Atma, dualistic – non-dualistic. The Self is non-dualistic (adwaita) and the non-Self is dualistic (dwaita). So that the applied awareness (upayog) can be maintained on the Self, it has been termed non-dualistic (adwaita). Dualism – non-dualism (dwaitadwaita) only exists as long as both the body and Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan) are there. But in final liberation (moksha); no such adjective remains. Adwaita itself is an adjective.

Is this world an illusion (mithya)? If you have a toothache, and you spend the entire night, turning your prayer beads and repeating, ‘This is just an illusion’, does the pain become an illusion? If the world is indeed an illusion, then why do people not throw away their money and prized possessions out onto the streets? The world is not an illusion, and neither is Brahma (Soul) an illusion. The world is a relative truth, and Brahma is the real truth. Deceit (maya) is that which does not allow you to fully understand the original element (Atma).

Self-knowledge(Brahmagnan) is the portal of entry into Self-realization (Atmagnan). The practice of religion can procure focused concentration (ekagrata) of the form of the Self (one’s swaroop), but not the attainment of the Self (swaroop) itself. Only through the Knowledge of the Atma (Atmagnan), does one attain the Atma (Self).

When faith in the temporary things of the world is removed, and placed in the eternal Self (Brahma); when one becomes established in the Self ( Brahmanishtha), it is called Self-Knowledge (Brahmagnan). And a person who is established in the Atma (Atmanishtha),is himself consideredthe Absolute Soul(Parmatma). The Atmanishtha person is free of intellect (abuddha); whilst the Brahmanishtha person’s intellect (buddhi) is still there.

The word-Brahma (shabda-brahma) and the sound-brahma (naad-brahma) are flag stations on the way to the terminus. At the most, they allow you to maintain focused concentration (ekagrata). Focused concentration (ekagrata), is the beginning of spirituality; however the Atma is infinite miles away from it. The word is not eternal, but it is something created as a result of the combination of two or three things; it is not a naturally occurring thing. However, the word that imparts experience is real, but ultimately, even dependency on words ends, and the independent state (niralumb) is attained.

After attaining the state of Brahma (Self), the awareness reaches perfection and one sees purity in every living being. In “Aham Brahmasmi (I am Brahma)” there is the ego of one’s own self. This ego means that one projects the belief of, ‘I am’ where ‘I am’ is not. The result of attaining Brahma is the constant experience of bliss of the Self (swa-samvedan). This state is similar to that of the King Janak Videhi (a king during the Silver Age, Tretayug), who transcended body consciousness through shabda-brahma). In all the events of the worldly life (sansar), one experiences non-attachment (asangata).

In order to attain the state of Brahma (the Self), to get rid of passions and obstructions (mudd-vikshep) or attachment and abhorrence (raag-dwesh), one has toiled in vain, life after life. But that which prevents one from attaining the Self (Brahma), is ignorance (agnan), which is the root cause. And nobody, except the Gnani Purush, is capable of removing that. That, which covers up the Atma, is ignorance: not ego (ahamkar).

What is the Gnani’s inner awakened Vision (drashti) like? In the first Vision, women and men are seen as completely naked. In the second Vision the body is seen without the skin. In the third Vision, the body is seen cut up, with exposed entrails, flesh and bones. And finally, you see the form of the Self (Brahmaswaroop) in everyone. Then is there any scope for attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh) to occur?

In every living being, there is the element of Chetan (life; Soul) which by nature is the same for all. However, in terms of physical matter ( dravya), they differ. Each Chetan is different by dravya, and each is completely independent. If all Souls were one, then would they not have all gone to final liberation (moksha), when Lord Rama went to final liberation? What, Ekoham Bahusyam (I am one, appear in many), could the Self (Brahma) possibly have such a desire?

The Atma does not dissolve into the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). In the process of dissolution, why should each Atma relinquish its own independence, and sacrifice unto another? Gnanis behold the complete Vision (Darshan)of the whole and complete, independent Absolute Soul (Parmatma), who resides in each and every being. If all souls were one, then why would you suffer pain, while Lord Rama is over there enjoying the bliss of final liberation (moksha)? If the Atma was the manifestation of the Parmatma,you would not suffer any pain at all.

By real viewpoint, the Atma is formless (nirakari), and by the relative viewpoint, it has form (sakaari). In the realm of the Liberated Souls (Siddha gati) the Atma decreases by a third, according to the size of the final physical body (charam sharira), retaining two-thirds of its shape, in spite of its formless nature.

In the beginning, the worship of the perfect and formless God (niranjan-nirakari Bhagwan) is done through the worship of a Gnani Purush, who is manifest in the human form, and considered a God with form (sakaari Bhagwan). Through this, you will recognize the Lord who is formless (nirakari Bhagwan).

How can you say that the Atma has no attributes (nirguna), when it is full of infinite Knowledge (anant Gnan), infinite Vision ( anant Darshan), infinite Bliss (anant sukh), and infinite Energy (anant shakti), and all infinite attributes (anant gunas), and who moreover, is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) Himself? By saying that the Absolute Soul has no attributes, would you not be turning your face forever from the devotion and attainment of its infinite qualities (gunas)? The attainment of the Absolute Soul can only occur through the worship of its attributes! The Atma has none of the qualities that the mind, speech and body complex (prakruti) possesses, but with regard to its own qualities (gunas); they are in abundance. Not a single quality (guna), belonging to the non-Self complex (prakruti) has entered into the Atma (Self), and not a single quality (guna) of the Atma has entered the mind, speech and body complex (prakruti).

The Atma has never become mixed with the properties of the non-Self complex (the prakruti). It has forever remained separate.

It is not that the Atma has knowledge, but that it is Knowledge itself (Gnan swaroop). It exists in the form of light (prakash swaroop ). And it is on the basis of this light, that the Self is able to know all the objects to be known (gneya), and see all the objects to be seen ( drashya).

The Atma is omnipresent (sarva vyaapi). In what reference is this so?

The light of the Atma is omnipresent but not the Atma itself. The light of this electric bulb illuminates the whole room; however, it is the light that spreads throughout the entire room; the bulb is not everywhere, but in its own place. Only in the final lifetime, in the final body ( charam sharira), when the Atma becomes the Absolute Soul (Parmatma); does it become fully exposed (niravaran), and enters the state of final liberation (Siddha-pad). This is when the entire universe becomes known (prameya), and the light of the Absolute Soul spreads throughout the universe! What is amazing about this is that the intensity of the light does not decrease anywhere!

If God is everywhere, in every particle, then where is the need to find Him? Does the Atma within us go and spread anywhere? Hence, in the form of life (chetan) the Atma is not omnipresent, but it is omnipresent by its inherent nature (swabhav).

God is present in the form of light, in every jiva (living being). But when a living being (jiva) becomes capable of seeing within, then he can see with the divine vision (divya chakshu) of the Lord, the divinity that resides within it. God is in “creature”, not in the creation (man-made). But He is covered up. Whichever part that becomes uncovered, is the direction the knowledge opens up, and develops in the worldly life to form a lawyer or a doctor. A single Atma has the energy to illuminate the entire universe, provided that it is completely free from particles of karma!

‘The Parmatma (the Absolute Soul) is complete, and I am a part of Him.’ – To dispel this misconception, the Gnani gives precise elucidation, saying that there are infinite numbers of souls, and they are all independent. That which has form, can be broken into pieces, but can you make pieces out of something that has no form? When it becomes a piece, how can you make it whole again? Can you make pieces out of the Lord?

The sun cannot become a ray, and a ray can never become the sun. An eternal element is always indivisible. By however much the layers of ignorance are shed, that much light of Knowledge will be exposed. When the coverings of all the regions (pradesho) of the Atma (Self) are uncovered, the full effulgence of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) will illuminate the entire universe.

Part Two

Who Am I ? How To Know This?

Atma-Parmatma, Brahma-Parabrahma, Jiva-Shiva, Ishwar-Parmeshwar, are all words that describe the phases of the Atma. When the phase changes, the state that is felt also changes; however, the original element remains the same. Because of change in the circumstance, one is a husband at home, a boss in the shop and a lawyer in court. But he remains the same everywhere.

What is the difference between the living being (jiva; embodied self) and the Self (Shiva)? You yourself are Shiva, but because of illusion (bhranti), you believe that you are just a living being; mortal (jiva). Once the illusion of separation breaks, the separation of jiva (self) and Shiva (Self) is broken, theliving being andthe Self (jiva-Shiva) become one.

As long as the living being (jiva; self) believes that the state of the worldly life (sansar) is really its own, it undergoes the cycles of birth and death. When living and dying ends, it is then the immortal Self (Shivatma).

The living being (jiva) has karma, and the Atma is without karma. But the Atma in them both is the same. The living being (self) is the doer- sufferer ( karta-bhokta); whereas the Atma is the non-doer (akarta) – non-sufferer (abhokta)! As long as you believe: ‘You are God, and I am your devotee’, the difference will exist. When you have the awareness: ‘I am myself the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma)’, you will no longer have that separation and you will have become free from all passions of attachment and abhorrence (vitarag). Free from fear (nirbhaya)! And Greatly Liberated (Mahamukta)!

God(Ishwar) and Absolute God (Parmeshwar) – Ishwar is the one with attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh), he has the ego of doership and it is he who becomes entranced (murchhit) with temporary things; whereas the Parmeshwar is devoid of attachment ( vitarag); a non-doer, that only worships its own eternal state. Nevertheless the state of Ishwar is a sacred state (vibhuti-swaroop). The end of adverse internal meditation that hurts oneself (artadhyan), and adverse internal meditation that hurts oneself and others ( raudradhyan), is the first link to the state of detachment from attachment and abhorrence (vitaragata).

There is nothing wrong in saying, “I am Chandubhai”, but it should not be so in your belief.

The identification of the milestones on the way to attaining the state of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), gives the traveler a complete security (reassurance) about the path.

As long as there is the desire for worldly pleasures and the propensity of the tendencies (vruttis) is to wander around in search of worldly pleasures, it is considered an outwardly-soul (bahirmukhi-atma) or ignorant soul (mudhatma). In the ignorant state, the embodied self (jivatma) only has the awareness of its existence (astitva). It believes that all of the attachments of the non-Self body complex ( pudgal) are its own, which is the first sign. The second sign is where, from the state of ignorance, one comes into the state of the inner awakened Soul (antaratma dasha), when all the tendencies that were roaming around outwardly, turn inward towards one’s home (the Self). When the Gnani Purush, through an instrumental intent (nimit bhaav), gives the ignorant soul (mudhatma) the conviction that the attachments of the non-Self body complex (pudgal) are not Your, and that You are the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), then for the first time, the conviction of the state ‘I am’, becomes one with the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). Now, not only is there awareness of existence (astitva), but one also has awareness of the elemental nature (vastutva) that is, ‘Who am I?’ This inner awakened Soul (antaratma)state means the “interim government” is established.

The interim government (antaratma) has two jobs. During worldly interaction (vyavahar), using applied awareness (upayog), one settles matters with equanimity, and during one’s free time, one remains in applied awareness of the Self (Atma-upayog). When entering this state of the inner awakened Soul (antaratma), one becomes independent to some degree; while to a certain degree one becomes dependent. Nevertheless, one is still making progress towards the state of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma); the progress always continues. By attaining the Knowledge and Vision of theGnani Purush, who is continually in the state of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), one has attained the state of the inner awakened Soul (antaratma; interim state of ‘I am pure Soul’). After this happens, this inner awakened Soul (antaratma) sees the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma) and begins to assume the same form! One, one’s self is the Absolute Soul, and this conviction now leads to oneness through the Knowledge. Through the worship of the original element (vastutva), one gradually reaches a state of perfection (purnatva). And when the worldly life (sansar) is completely settled, the “full government” becomes established, and that is when one becomes the complete Absolute Soul – the Parmatma!

In the Absolute (Kevali) state, the Atma is itself the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). As far as being supported in worldly-form, it is the inner awakened Soul (antaratma) and in the state of ignorance, it is un-awakened to the self (mudhatma)!

Hoo, bavo, Mangaldas!” (Hoo is the ‘I’, the absolute Self and Pragnya, the direct energy of the awakened Self. Bavo is the ego and all the wrong beliefs. Mangaldas is the physical body and the mind). The ‘I’ (hoo) is the same in all three! The one that has become completely devoid of attachment and abhorrence (vitarag) is the Absolute Self (Parmatma)! The one that has the vision of becoming free from attachment and abhorrence, is the inner awakened Soul (antaratma), and the one that is engrossed in worldly pleasures, and continues to have attachment and abhorrence (raag-dwesh), is the deluded self (mudhatma)!

Those who have attained the final liberation, all the Liberated Souls (Siddhatma) who dwell in the realm of Liberation (Siddha lok), exist in their own individual, natural state of bliss. There is no superior (upari) nor subordinate over there. All liberated beings by nature are the same; Knowing and Seeing (Gnan-Darshan) is their nature. There is no form of conduct (charitra) over there. There is no mechanical activity, nor are there any subatomic particles of the non-Self body complex (pudgal parmanu) over there. It (the realm of liberation) is located at the edge of the universe (brahmaand). There, they do not affect one another, and they also do not have any effect on other places in the universe. The Liberated Souls (Siddha Bhagwan) cannot help us, but because our goal is to reach there, we worship their state: Namo Siddhanam – I bow down to the Liberated Absolute Souls!

If this light were Chetan, it would just keep seeing all the things in this room! That is how the Liberated Souls (Siddhatma) know everything which is to be known (gneya).

Moksha means to attain the qualities (gunas) of the Self, to attain the nature of the Self, and to eternally remain in the natural bliss of the Self!

Who is the one that attains the final liberation (moksha)? The one who is bound attains liberation (moksha). Who is the one that is bound? The one who suffers. Who is the one suffering? The ego! The inner intent (bhaav) to attain liberation; belongs to the one that is bound. It is not the Atma that has this intent, because in reality the Atma is free; it is neither the doer (karta), nor the sufferer (bhokta). It is only the ego that is looking for liberation. It goes in search of liberation (moksha), when it finds the worldly life (sansar) insipid (joyless).

The true purpose of life must be to attain final liberation (moksha). Now if that goal is extremely strong, one will surely attain it. That, which obstructs this purpose, is illusory attachment (moha). When moha decreases, one becomes weary of the worldly life (sansar), and begins to look for the path to final liberation (moksha).

Only until the state of the Atma is attained, is it necessary to be in a state of thinking, and that too, should only be thoughts concerned with Knowledge of the Self (Gnan ankshepakvant); which will help attain the Atma. Thereafter the state that follows is beyond thoughts. In the state of ignorance, one observes the Atma through the ego; whereas the Atma is beyond the ego.

When every subatomic particle (parmanu) of anger, pride, deceit and greed is purified, and after the ego has attained complete purification; the ego unifies with the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) – such is the Kramic path (the traditional step-by-step path to Self-realization)! In the Akram (step-less) path however, the Gnani Purush directly gives one the status of the pure Soul (Shuddhatma); a state that is steady (achad), original (darasal), and one that cannot be tainted (nirlep).

Shuddhatma (the pure Soul), is one’s own form; it is not the body. When you realize this, dehadhyas (the belief of, ‘I am the body’) ends and the ego and the ‘my-ness’ (mamata) leave. A person with the consciousness of ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas) cannot free anyone from the same consciousness. Only the Gnani Purush, who is free from dehadhyas,can liberate one.

The prevailing experience of ‘I am this body, mind, speech etc.’ is dehadhyas, and after Self-realization, this experience is gone, and there prevails the experience of the Atma (Self). That, which becomes involved (tanmayakar) with the body, is not the original Atma, but the atma that one believes in; the atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma).

It is not the Atma from within that says, ‘You are wrong’, but the tape- record, that is based on whatever worldly knowledge it has assumed, that is speaking. All these: the eyes (camera), ears (receivers), speech (tape-record), mind (machine’s head); as well as, eating, drinking, talking, walking, is all mechanical.

Those who believe: ‘I am a sinner’, ‘I practice penance’, or ‘I know scriptures’; or else, those conducting religious rituals, meditation, chanting and penance – these actions are all done by the mechanical atma, the Gnani has said. The Atma, according to the world’s belief – the one that it tries to make still (achar) and steady – is in motion (sachar – changing); it is a mechanical atma; whereas the real Atma is still (achar), and its nature is to Know. The belief is fundamentally wrong. While being in an unsteady state, in trying to discover the steady Atma, you would only attain the unsteady atma! The mechanical atma, which is always unsteady (chanchal) and active ( kriyasheel); is what the world is trying to make steady. How can this be possible? The vision that is directed towards the steady (achar) will bring about the natural state of steadiness. Who but the Gnani, can make one understand the fact that the mechanical self, and the original Atma, are so different by nature? Who would give you such knowledge of their separation? The original Atma is in the form of Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan), in the form of Absolute light (Keval prakash), infinite Knowledge (anant Gnan), infinite Vision ( anant Darshan), infinite Energy (anant shakti) and infinite Bliss (anant sukh). This chetan is full of infinite attributes!

That which dwells in the worldly life cannot be the original Atma. It is attachment and abhorrence (raag-dwesh). As long as its results keep occurring, the seat of the pure Soul will not be attained.

Due to close proximity with Chetan (Atma), illusory energy (mayavi shakti) arises and that is the deluded atma ( bhrant chetan). The non-Self atma (nischetan-chetan) means that on the outside, it shows the qualities of chetan (Atma), butin all truth, it is not.Theoriginal chetan (Atma) remains inside, and there is a layer of non-Self atma ( nischetan-chetan) over it. It is the non-Self atma, that itself is called mechanical chetan.

What the Gnani’s original word mishra-chetan (‘I’ with wrong belief) – indicates, is that when one starts to become involved in situations, the mishra-chetan begins to form. This results in the charging of karma, which in the next lifetime, come to fruition and the discharge process begins – that is when it is called mechanical chetan (atma).

The “real Atma” and “relative atma” are identified by eternal and non-eternal qualities, respectively. Until the Real is realized, the relative atma is believed to be the real Atma, because of illusion (bhranti). It is because of scientific causes that this illusion comes about. Under illusion (bhranti), the Knower and the doer; the eternal and the non-eternal behave as one. When the Gnani Purush breaks down this illusion, and places a “line of demarcation” between the real and the relative, one attains the Vision of the Self (Atma-darshan), which, before the realization is concealed from awareness. And compared to this, there is no other vision as wonderful as this in the entire world! After that, one remains in the state of the Knower of the location (kshetragnya) and knows every action in the non-Self field. If one misses the location of the Self (swa-kshetra), one will become involved in the location of the non-Self (kshetrakaar). Only the permanent can call the temporary, as temporary. You are already permanent; but only if you have that awareness!

The reason why every individual appears different, is because each one is dependent on matter (dravya), location (kshetra), time (kaad ) and inner intent (bhaav). In this however, when the location changes or another enters one’s location, the time will have changed, and because of that, the intent will have changed, which means that the matter (dravya) will also have changed. Regardless of all the external changes that happen in the circumstances, there are no changes in the state of the Atma. The Atma is in its pure state throughout all the three time periods (past, present and future), but because of layers of coverings (avaran), its reality is obstructed from coming into one’s vision. Once the vision is purified, there is no place for impurity. As long as the ego is there, there is a reason why one’s vision (drashti) is flawed. Nevertheless the real Atma, the real Self has always maintained its state of detachment and purity throughout these changes and even its phases (paryaya) have remained constant. The relative self (vyavahar atma) has pure (shuddha) and impure (ashuddha) phases. Obstinacy (insistence on one’s own truth) in the relative self (vyavahar atma) will lead to the creation of another relative self. As long as a person does not meet a Gnani , he has to carry on making his spoiled worldly interaction (vyavahar) auspicious and good (shubha). But when he meets the Gnani, he just has to purify his worldly interaction (vyavahar). When in worldly interaction (vyavahar), one is a relative self (vyavahar atma), and when one is in the real Self (nischay), one is the nischay Atma (the real Self)! But, in all the states the Self is one and the same.

What is the origin (adhishthan) of the world? If it has been exposed in the exact way, it is by the revered Dadashri. The origin of the world is the relative self; the atma that has been instilled with life (pratishthit atma). The real Atma has always remained here; in the state of complete non-doership (akarta bhavey) and detachment (uninvolved – udaseen bhavey). It is only because the energy of vision ( darshan shakti) has been covered up, and the wrong vision (vibhavik drashti) has set in, that the world has come about!

The fundamental real Atma (nischay atma)is the pure Soul (Shuddhatma), and in worldly interaction (vyavahar) it is the believed atma, which is the relative self (pratishthit atma). I am Chandubhai, I am his maternal uncle, his paternal uncle…; this wrong belief has become instilled, and it has created an instilled (pratishthit) persona which continually gives results. In the process of tasting the fruit of these results, through ignorance, one instills anew, yet again; therefore, the cycle continues.

While under the influence of alcohol, a man forgets himself and says, ‘I am the king’. In the same way, under the influence of the ego, a person will say things like, “I am Chandubhai…I am her husband, I am his father…”! In reality, One is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma); the master of the fourteen worlds. But because of the wrong belief, he sets himself up as the woman’s husband and loses his own status. But when the Gnani Purush gives him the awareness of his own Self and uproots his ego, and when all the previous illusory effects are erased, he attains the perfect state. Otherwise, as long as the ego is there, one sees through the vision of the intellect (buddhi), and believes that the atma is the doer-sufferer ( karta-bhokta). When one sees through Gnan (Knowledge), that the Atma does not do anything, then it fits (acceptable). If the wrong belief disperses, then the reality becomes visible. It is the changed belief that has initiated the worldly life (sansar) and given rise to the relative self (prakruti). The original Atma has always remained unaccompanied (asanga) and untainted (nirlep).

The relative self (prakruti) arises because of scientific circumstantial evidence. No one has any doership in any of this. The prakruti is effective, and that is why one becomes affected. But this is only so, as long as the wrong beliefs are there.

With the right belief, the wrong belief is severed and the right belief gradually and naturally cuts itself (wrong belief part) off and this occurs even in this very age of the current time cycle (Kaliyug) through the present Akram Vignan due to the phenomenal exploration to impart liberation by the Gnani Purush of our times!

If one prevails in the right belief, one is within the domain of the Self and if one prevails in the wrong belief, one is within the domain of the non-Self. Illusory vision (mithya drashti) shows everything the wrong way. When you meet the Gnani Purush, and you come to hear hissatsang (spiritual talks); from that moment on, your vision will begin to rectify. Or you can change your vision by praying to the Gnani Purush. Once your vision changes, you continue on to become Bhagwan (God).

In the shubha-ashubha (auspicious-inauspicious) religions, both truth and untruth have a place. Their way to attainment, is attachment to truth and contempt for untruth. There is no place for that in the pure religion, in the religion of the Self (Atma dharma). The religion of the Self is about being beyond attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh); it is about absolute absence of attachment and abhorrence (vitaragata). It is the poisoned vision that causes attachment and abhorrence. The Gnani Purush turns the vision that was directed towards temporary things; towards the permanent. He changes the direction of the vision. Then the vision of, “I am in all that lives” (Atmavat sarva bhuteshu) arises.

There is a big difference between the experience of the Atma (Atma anubhav) and Self-realization (Atma sakshatkar). Experience is the final stage, and it is permanent; whereas with Self-realization, only the conviction (pratiti) has set in. After the experience of the Atma, one enters the conduct (charitra) stage, which is considered prevailing as the Self.

The Atma is invisible (aroopi) and even the one that realizes it, is invisible, so that both natures blend, and the vrutti (tendencies towards the worldly life) return home to the Self.

When one knows what Atma is and what the Atma is not, one is said to have known the Atma. In the state of ignorance, one should not say, ‘the Atma is pure perfect knowledge (shuddha-buddha)’. At the most, one can say, from the perspective of the body, the Atma is impure but from the perspective of the Atma, it is pure.

Once tasted, the bliss of the Atma never goes away. It is the joy of the mind which is fleeting, so that once it comes, it will go away. As long as the chit (inner functioning component comprised of knowledge and vision) stays involved with the kashays (inner weakness of anger, pride, deceit and greed), it is not possible to experience the Atma. A state of eternal bliss is itself the experience of the Atma.

The Gnani gives you the awareness that worry and anger is something that happens in the non-Self, and not in the Self; thereafter, the conviction that nothing can happen to the Atma sets in.

After attaining the Atma in the exact manner, only the discharge karmas remain. In that state there is only samvar purvak nirjara,meaning there is blockage of new binding karma (samvar) while the effects of past causes are unfolding. Thereafter, no further karmas are bound.

The karma exerts control, as long as it receives one’s support. Once the support is removed, the karma becomes neutral. The support is given during the unfolding of the karma, when because of ignorance one says, ‘I did this’ when in reality the doer is the unfolding effects of past causes!

Although the Gnani Purush does all the activity involved in sansar (worldly life), firmly embedded in his consciousness there is always the awareness, ‘I do not do anything’, and that is how he remains as the Atma. The agnani (one without Self-awareness), on the other hand, never steps out of the consciousness of ‘I am the doer’, not even momentarily!

“He who knows the Atma has known everything”. He who has known the Atma is karan sarvagnya (one who creates causes to become Knower of all elements); he is called karan Keval Gnani (he creates causes to become fully enlightened). The Knower of the Soul (Atmagnani) is without obstinacy or insistence (niragrahi), and without ego (nirahamkari).

Nothing is gained by repeatedly saying, ‘I am not the body, I am not the body; I am the Atma, I am the Atma’. Here, one has to have the experience of the Atma. Whatever disciplines (sadhano) for the attainment of Self knowledge (Atmagnan) one has implemented until today, have all become binding. The true sadhan (means; instrument) is where one employs the manifest Gnani Purush, and only there, lies liberation! The disciplines (sadhano) only lead you up to Knowledge (Gnan); whereas the Atma is in the form of science ( vignan swaroop). The Atma can pass all the way through this body, the houses and a thousand walls; it is the subtlest of all! So how can it be found? No matter how much religious discipline or penance one undertakes in order to attain Self-realization, it is extremely difficult to achieve. If the station is just half a mile away, but you go twenty-two miles in the wrong direction, whose fault would it be? When it was you who forgot the way, why would it be the body’s fault? It is entirely the fault of ignorance.

The Gnani does not just give you the knowledge of the Atma, but he also gives you answers to all the complexities of the universe. If an obstacle arises in your attaining Self-realization, you can break it with a strong resolution: ‘I want to get this Gnan from the Gnani’, or it can also be broken with a request to the Gnani, ‘Please destroy my obstacle’. Otherwise, anyone who desires Self-realization will not come across any kind of adversity. One faces adversity because of one’s own weakness. How could there be any adversity, when you are going to your own home?

If you want to experience the Atma on your own, then if someone picks your pocket or shouts obscenities at you, or even beats you, you should say to yourself, ‘This is the result of my own karma, the other person is just instrumental (a nimit), he is freeing me from my karma’. By doing this, you will perceive him as nirdosh (innocent), and moreover, it will allow you to bless him. And if it stays this way all the time, you will attain Self-realization for sure. But people are spineless when it comes to looking at things this way; therefore, if just once, one goes to the Gnani to awaken the Atma, the Atma, even in dreams, can never be forgotten.

How does the salvation of the Atma happen? The salvation of the original Atma has already happened. It is just the relative self that needs salvation. How is that done? When the understanding sets in that, ‘My real nature (swaroop) is Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan), Absolute Vision (Keval Darshan), and Absolute Conduct (Keval Charitra)’, even then it will occur. And who but the Gnani Purush can fit (provide) us with this?

The Atma is the subtlest (sookshmatam), and the regions (pradesho) around it, is subtler (sookshmatar). But because speech is not subtler, it cannot describe the region; it halts. There, only experience can resolve this.

How can you find the real Atma, when you are looking for it through the vision of the perceived atma? How can you see what lies beyond the senses, when you see through the eyes of the senses themselves? You need a Gnani Purush, in the middle, who can change your vision so that you can see! The senses themselves will not turn inwards; you cannot fence them in! The Gnani will put you in the same state that he himself has attained. Once you meet the Gnani, it is worth asking him for moksha (liberation).

The spiritual science of Akram Vignan that has manifested through the revered Dadashri; steers you away from the illusory path and makes you fully achieve the path to final liberation (moksha). That is to say, that it is a complete full stop path, and not a comma. Akram Vignan says that if the worldly life (sansar) were an obstacle towards final liberation, it would not allow anyone to go to the final liberation! Because of Akram Vignan, today the final liberation can be very easily attained. For that, you must present yourself to theAkram Gnani, with the highest humility (param vinaya), the inner intent of ‘I do not know anything’; and the deep desire ( bhavna) of ‘How do I attain this?’ This itself, will make it attainable.

No other forms of eligibility are taken into consideration in this age, and besides, there is no such eligibility anyway! The fact that you have reached the Akram Gnani itself proves your eligibility.

Gnani Purush , the most revered Dadashri has not been able to keep his bhavna (deep inner intent) a secret. So with words filled with compassion, he expresses this desire: My idea is that the message of this vignan (science), reaches every corner of the world, and that peace should prevail everywhere. My inner intent (bhavna), my wish or desire, call it what you may; is just this!

– Dr. NirubenAmin

Special note to the reader

l To facilitate reading and comprehension, the reader is asked to familiarize himself with some changes to key words. Capitalized words and lowercase words are used to denote two different states of being. Here are some examples:

l The word Self, with ‘S’, refers to the awakened Self or Soul, which is separate from the worldly soul (non awakened self), written with ‘s’. The term Shuddhatma (pure Soul) is used for the awakened Self, after the Gnan Vidhi given by the Gnani Purush.

Similarly, any word in the middle of a sentence, with an initial capital or words in inverted commas, e.g. ‘You’, ‘Your’, at the beginning of a sentence, refers to the awakened Self or Pragnya. This is an important distinction for the correct understanding of the difference between the awakened Self or the Self and the non-awakened self or the worldly self.

l Wherever the name ‘Chandubhai’ is mentioned, the reader should substitute it with his or her name.

l Dadashri uses the term ‘We’, ‘us’ or ‘our’ – meaning the Gnani Purush.

l We welcome your comments, suggestions, corrections and any constructive criticism of this translation so future editions can be improved. Please e-mail them to: [email protected]

Aptavani – 8

Part : One

What Is the Atma? What Must It Be Like?

What Is the Atma?

Questioner: What is the Atma (Soul)?

Dadashri: The Atma means life energy (chetan).

Questioner: So does life energy (chetan) mean Atma and Atma means life energy (chetan)?

Dadashri: No. Atma is just a word, and even chetan is just a word, but we have to use these words for people to recognize them. Otherwise it is beyond words. Does one not have to point them out? Or else you would not even recognize them. How else could you recognize them? Is that not why people say, ‘go look for your Atma?! The Atma means the Self. To know, ‘Who you are’ is called Atma (Self). And it is that Self which you need to recognize. When the wrong belief (of ‘I am Chandubhai’) goes away and the right belief (‘I am the Self’) is established, this will be resolved. How else would this come about?

What Could the Atma Be?

Dadashri: Is the Atma an element (vastu), or is it non-element (avastu)?

Questioner: Avastu .

Dadashri: And what you see, is it element (vastu) or non-element (avastu)?

Questioner: The Atma is not visible, so it is non-matter (avastu); but matter or element (vastu) is visible, is it not?

Dadashri: No. Let me explain vastu and avastu to you. Anything that is eternal (avinashi) is called a real element (vastu), and anything that is destructible and transient (vinashi) is called a non-element (avastu). The Atma is in the form of Atma. The Atma in the form of a real element (vastu) isthe abode ofinfiniteproperties(guna)!Eachreal element(vastu) has its own matter (dravya), property (guna), and phases (paryaya). Anything that has matter-property-phase ( dravya-guna-paryaya) is considered an eternal element (vastu). Vastu can be called eternal.

Even Atma itself is an eternal element (vastu): it has its own matter (dravya), its own properties (guna) and its own phases ( paryaya). And those phases come with origin (utpaad), a steady state (dhruva) and an end (vyaya). And all that is visible to the eyes is not an eternal element (avastu), and is destructible (vinashi). And the Atma (the Self) is eternal (avinashi); an eternal element (vastu).

There are six such elements (tattva), and the world is made up of these six elements. These six eternal elements are constantly interacting with one another and undergoing changes that give rise to circumstances and states of things (avastha). It is through these circumstances that we see this world. Only the circumstances are visible in this world.

Know the Atma from the Gnani

So if there is anything worth knowing in this world, then it is the Atma – the Self. And there may be only one or two people in this world who know the Atma. So no one can know the Atma. People can know everything, but they cannot know the Atma! And he who knows the Atma; will not take long to attain Keval Gnan (Absolute Knowledge).

Now, if a person comes to know that Atma from the Gnani Purush, he will attain the Atma; otherwise, it is not possible to attain the Atma in any time period. The Gnani Purush has seen, known and experienced the Atma, and himself lives in the Atma’s own natural state (swaroop)! So if you yourself know the Atma through such a Gnani Purush, you will get somewhere. When you sit with the Gnani Purush to know such an Atma, through the Gnan Vidhi (samayik) of the Gnani Purush, all your demerit karmas (paap) are burnt to ashes. And only when your demerit karmas are destroyed, will the Atma come into your awareness (laksha); otherwise it will not!

That awareness will be there forever; whereas nothing else in the world can be remembered forever, perhaps it will be remembered for a while, but will soon be forgotten. Here, your demerit karmas (paap) are cleansed by the Gnani Purush, so you attain the awareness of the Atma !

Who Has Doubts About the Existence of the Soul?

Questioner: ‘Is there an Atma or not?’ Such doubts do arise.

Dadashri: The Atma definitely does exist!

Questioner: The foreign scientists have done all kinds of research to determine whether or not there is an Atma, by putting a dying man in a glass case, to see if they could figure out how and from where, the soul (jiva; living being) leaves the body. It did not seem that way to them. Their conclusion was that there is no such thing as soul (jiva) at all.

Dadashri: No. But do they not make statements like, ‘this is non-living’ (ajiva)? Is this table non-living or not? It is non-living, right? So then, are the table and the man the same thing?

Questioner: No. What they meant, was that there is no such thing as soul (jiva), that leaves – that is what they meant.

Dadashri: Those scientists make a man; they do build new hearts, and they make everything, do they not? So if they made a new man altogether, will that man be able to interact and function in the same way we do?

Questioner: No, he would not.

Dadashri: So then on what basis can they say that there is no such thing as soul or living being (jiva)?

Questioner: They just placed a dying man in a glass case, but when the soul (jiva) was leaving, they did not see anything so they concluded that there is no such thing as soul (jiva).

Dadashri: It is like this: either someone with an understanding will deny it, or someone without an understanding will deny it. Not every person will have doubts, will he! And those who do have doubts about whether there is a soul (jiva) or not, are souls themselves! The very person that doubts, is himself a living being (soul), or else he would not have doubts! And none of all these other non-living (jada) things will have doubts. If there is any doubting going on, it is the soul (jiva) that does it; moreover, there is no other thing that can have doubts. Do you understand this?

Will a person have any doubts after he dies? No, then what is it that leaves? Does the heart stop? What must be happening?

Questioner: A person dies because his heart stops.

Dadashri: Yes, a person will die. He lives because he breathes. The soul (jiva) within; lives because of the breathing. It will live as long as there is breath.

Questioner: A person dies when the essential body parts stop functioning. If that is true, then there is no such thing as an embodied soul (jiva).

Dadashri: There is such a thing as soul (jiva)! A person is a soul (jiva), yet he has doubts about his own self. The one, having the doubt, is the soul (jiva) itself. The one, who has the doubt about there not being life in the body, is himself the soul (jiva). If a person without a tongue in his mouth, says, ‘I do not have a tongue in my mouth’, that itself proves that there is a tongue in his mouth. Do you understand? That is why the statement that there is doubt, is a contradiction. People say that when a man dies, there is no such thing as the soul (jiva)! The word itself raises doubt; a person has doubt. The doubt itself proves that there is soul (jiva) there.

If I sat down with the scientists, I would explain to them right away that it is the soul (jiva) that is speaking. Are you having a new kind of doubt? So there is definitely soul (jiva) in every living entity! And do we not give examples like, ‘the jiva goes away’?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: And why do they have to numb an area when they give an injection? Why do they have to make it numb?

Questioner: So that we do not feel any pain or sensation.

Dadashri: They have to give an “injection” (anesthetic), to move the soul (jiva) away from that area. As long as the jiva is there, one could not tolerate the pain of the “operation” (surgery). Do you understand?

Existence of the Soul! Based on Which Qualities?

Dadashri: Is there a difference between chetan (Soul, Self, life energy) and jada (non-living matter; non-Self) do you think?

Questioner: Of course.

Dadashri: What sorts of intrinsic properties (gunadharma) do they have?

Questioner: Chetan can move about and it has feelings.

Dadashri: Even machines can move about. Scooters, engines and cars all move around, do they not? These fabricated mechanical dolls, do they not also move? You cannot call something a living being (jiva), just because it moves around. If you could recognize the Atma through its ability to move, then even machines move as well. How else can you tell if something has Atma?

Questioner: We do all kinds of activities (kriya).

Dadashri: All kinds of activities, even that is not helpful. Machines can do all sorts of activities (kriya).

Questioner: Machines carry out activity, but they cannot display sympathy (daya) or love (prem), can they?

Dadashri: Yes, that is the difference. So, wherever there is knowledge (gnan) and ignorance (agnan); if it is ignorance, it is ignorance, and if it is knowledge it is knowledge, but wherever there is any knowledge or any ignorance or any kindness, there is Atma there. You would call that the confirmation. Otherwise, even machines have motion and move about, do they not?

Now if there is no kindness (daya), and the person curses and swears, is the Atma present there?

Questioner: The Atma is always there.

Dadashri: So even when there is no mercy (daya), would there be Atma there?

Questioner: Yes, machines would not show feelings of kindness or anger!

Dadashri: Yes, therefore it confirms that wherever these exist, there is Atma. This tape-record may be speaking, but it does not possess any anger or greed, now does it?! It does not even have feelings (laagani). So wherever there is feeling; there is Atma.

…But Whose Qualities Are They?

Are feelings an attribute of the Atma or the body?

Questioner: Of the Atma.

Dadashri: Is that so?! So are anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh), all qualities of the Atma?

Questioner: Yes, the Atma must be the doer of all these.

Dadashri: But people are trying to get rid of anger-pride-deceit-greed. If they are qualities of the Atma, then those qualities would never leave! And are people not trying to get rid of anger-pride-deceit-greed?

Questioner: They all try to get rid of them.

Dadashri: But if they are qualities of the Atma, then no one can get rid of them, can they! If they did get rid of them, even the Atma would go away; therefore they are not the Atma’s qualities.

Questioner: Are they the body’s qualities?

Dadashri: They are neither qualities of the body nor of the Atma. If you say they are qualities of the Atma, then anger-pride-deceit-greed would be considered weaknesses, and the Atma is the Parmatma (Absolute Soul). It does not have a single quality of weakness whatsoever!

And What Are the Attributes of Atma?

Many people say, ‘the one that speaks within, is the Atma’. But the speaker cannot be living (jiva), nor can it even be Bhagwan (God). It is a record that speaks. Even the speech that is coming from me right now, is a record that is talking; ‘I’ am not the one speaking. These are all records that are talking –tape-record! The original tape-record plays, and from that, another gets recorded, and another.

So this is the first record, and then from that you can record as many as you want. Hence, this speech – this whole machine that is running, eating, drinking, circulating blood – cannot be called jiva (soul). It is all mechanical. The soul (jiva) is a form of knowledge (gnan swaroop ); knowledge is a form of light (prakash swaroop). The form of light that is present here does not exist anywhere else in any other form.

If at night, someone gives you shrikhand (yoghurt pudding) in the dark, where would you put the shrikhand? Will it get into your eyes when you put it in your mouth? Or will it only go into your mouth?

What do you think? Why are you not saying anything?

Even if you were given shrikhand in pitch darkness, you would only put it in your mouth, would you not? Then if someone asks you what you ate, what will you tell him?

Questioner: Shrikhand .

Dadashri: And if someone asks you what is in the shrikhand, what will you tell him?

Questioner: Yogurt and sugar.

Dadashri: Yes, and if the yogurt was slightly off, would you be able to tell?

Questioner: Certainly.

Dadashri: And you would know even if it is good?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Would you know if there was less sugar in it?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Would you also know if there was too much sugar?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: How can you know all that in the dark of night? Could you tell in the dark? And then would you know if there were raisins and nuts in it? If there were a small cardamom seed in it, would you know?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: So everything that knows all this; is the soul (jiva).

Questioner: People say that it is because of the sensory nerves that we perceive, and if there were not any sensory nerves, then we would not perceive.

Dadashri: Yes, and if you did not have sensory nerves, you would not perceive things. But the soul (jiva) is the one that knows. And if the connections between the nerves and the brain cells are not functioning, then the soul will not know. But the one, who knows, is the jiva (living being). Do you understand?

That which moves and walks, is machinery that moves and walks. Those properties are not in chetan (soul). What are its properties? It has infinite light of Knowledge (Gnan prakash), infinite light of Vision (Darshan prakash), infinite energy (anant shakti), and it is the abode of infinite bliss (anant sukh nu dham).

The Jiva Even Likes Pleasure

Now, who is looking for pleasure? Who does not like pain? Why does one not like pain? If this body were without jiva (soul) then pleasure and pain would be the same. Why would that be? Have you ever thought about this? What have you thought?

No living being (jiva) likes pain, is that not a fact? Does any living being like pain? If you put a lump of sugar out here, the ants will scurry around with excitement and take it away, but what if you put some gravel there instead? They would run off. Why is that? What do they like? Pleasure. Therefore, that which does not like pain and looks for pleasure, is the jiva. The one that moves around, walks about is not jiva.

Where There Is Feeling, There Is Chetan (Life)

Then that which feels, does it have feelings or not? That which has feelings is a jiva (living being). And the jiva (living entity) itself isAtma; it is chetan itself, and it can also become the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)! When it becomes full and perfect, it becomes Parmatma (Absolute Soul).

Do you understand? That, wherever there are any feelings of any kind, therein lies the Atma, and decidedly there is chetan (life) present. Therefore, you should know that where there are feelings, there is life (chetan) present. And if something does not show feelings, then it has no life and therefore, it is anatma (without Atma). Even trees and leaves have feelings.

Questioner: But a tree is a one-sensed organism (ekendriya).

Dadashri: One-sensed (ekendriya) means it only has the feeling of touch (sparsha), and it can display the feeling of touch. Every living entity ( jiva) has feelings. Those that have feelings, clearly show the presence of Atma. It is not that the entity in which the feelings arise is itself the Atma, but that wherever there are feelings, there is Atma. And where no feelings arise; there is no Atma.

…But the One That Feels Is the Pudgal (the Non-Self Complex)

Now, what is Atma? It has no feelings or anything like that. The Atma is only in the form of light! But from wherever there are feelings, we can find the Atma.

Questioner: So does it mean that chetan is the basis of feeling, or that chetan lies where the feelings arise?

Dadashri: If we say that the basis of feelings is chetan (life energy), it creates another problem. The feelings arise because of the presence of chetan! So wherever there is feeling, there is chetan.

Questioner: The feeling that arises and manifests itself; is not chetan that manifests, is it?

Dadashri: It is the non-Self complex (pudgal) that expresses feelings, but because there is the presence of chetan there, the feelings arise and pain is felt. So if you want to make a distinction between the chetan (soul, atma) and jada (inanimate, matter), then no feelings arise in this tape-record, therefore, there is no chetan (soul) in it.

To Continuously Know Is the Nature of the Soul

Questioner: So is there a difference between chetan (soul) and matter?

Dadashri: An enormous one! Chetan is invisible (aroopi); whereas matter is roopi, it is visible. Matter will decay, fall apart, dissipate and after a long time it will start to decompose. It is something that you can see with your eyes, taste with your tongue and hear with your ears; whereas chetan is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)!

Questioner: So what is the difference between the Self (Atma) and the non-Self (anatma)?

Dadashri: They are different by their inherent properties (gunadharma). Does everything not have its own property? This gold has its own property; copper has its own property. Do not we recognize things by their properties?

Questioner: Yes, we do.

Dadashri: That is how the properties of the Atma and the non-Self (anatma) are. They do have some of the same properties, however, in certain cases, some of their properties differ. The inherent nature (chaitanya swabhav) of the Self is not found in anything else. Chaitanya swabhav means Knowledge (Gnan) and Vision (Darshan).

So, Knowledge and Vision are the innate qualities (guna) of the Atma (the Self). The inherent nature (swabhav) of the Atma is to continually know. That inherent nature of Knowing is not present in any inanimate (jada) thing. This attribute of Knowing does not exist in this body. The inherent attribute (swabhav) of Knowing is that of the Atma, and that itself is the Parmatma (Absolute Soul)!

The Atma Is the Abode of Infinite Properties

Questioner: Does the Atma not possess Knowledge (Gnanvado) anyways?

Dadashri: It is itself Knowledge. Not that it has Knowledge; it is Knowledge itself! If we call it “Gnanvado (with Knowledge)”,it would mean that with (vado) and Knowledge (Gnan), are two separate things.Therefore, the Atma itself is Knowledge; it is light (prakash) itself! And it is because of this light that you are able to see all this. It is because of this light that all this is ‘seen’ (understood) everything, and ‘known’ (experienced). It is because of this light, that one can understand everything and know everything.

So the Atma is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma); the abode of infinite qualities (guna). It has so many qualities that you cannot even begin to describe them! The Atma is the abode of its innate natural qualities (swabhavik guna), so that those qualities (guna) are such that they will never ever change. There is infinite Knowledge (anant Gnan), there is infinite Vision (anant Darshan), infinite energy (anant shakti), it is the abode of infinite bliss ( anant sukh), its nature is that nothing can ever hurt it, nor does it ever hurt anything (avyabaadh swaroop). It possesses all kinds of such innate qualities.

When Will These Attributes of the Atma Manifest?

Not even for a second have you attained a single one. At the moment, you are experiencing the innate qualities (guna) of the mind-speech-body complex (the prakruti). You will attain the innate qualities according to your belief. If you remain as Chandubhai, you will attain the qualities of the prakruti, and if ‘You’ become the pure Self (shuddha chaitanya), then ‘Your’ own natural qualities (swabhavik guna) will arise. So sit wherever you want to.

Where there is no presence of the Atma’s innate qualities (guna); there is no Atma. As long as this gold maintains its own innate property (guna), it is gold, and it does not assume the property of anything else. All the properties (guna) that you see in the world, belong to something else; there is no Self (Atma) there. There, the Self remains the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta), but it is not a part of it. The Atma has not become integrated in this. The Atma is not mixed; the Atma is immiscible (nirbhedda)!

How Can You Recognize The Soul?

Questioner: Can we see the Atma? Or is it just an imagination (kalpana)?

Dadashri: You cannot see air, and yet do you not know that it is air? You can smell perfume, but can you see the fragrance? But even then, are you not convinced that it is perfume? That is how you can be convinced that there is Atma. Just as you recognize perfume by its fragrance; from the Atma’s bliss you can recognize the Atma, and then you will see this world as it is. And from that, you will be convinced that the Atma has infinite qualities: infinite Knowledge, infinite Vision, infinite Energy, infinite bliss, so many qualities! The Atma itself is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), but one has to have the awareness of this. Once you have this awareness, all the qualities (guna) will become apparent. The Atma has infinite viewpoints ( anant bhed) and is the abode of infinite qualities! Until now, you have not even known a single one of its innate qualities!

The Atma is an element that spans throughout past, present and future time. Although it is the abode of infinite bliss, people are out looking for pleasure in mangoes (petty things); out shopping for mangoes and “market material” (things that have no value). What you can see with your eyes, hear with your ears, smell with your nose, taste with your tongue, all that you can touch, is all “market material”.

Familiarity With The Gnani Brings Infinite Energies

Questioner: Does the Atma have infinite energy (shakti)?

Dadashri: Yes, but that energy should manifest through a Gnani Purush. Just as when you went to school to learn. Your knowledge was already there within you, but they brought it to light. In the same way, from the Gnani Purush, your energies will arise. There is infinite energy, but it lies “undermine” (under the surface); deep within. ‘We’ expose those energies for you. There is tremendous energy lying within. Not just in you, but such energy lies in every living being, but what can one do? There are layers and layers that cover it up.

Questioner: Is there any relation between the Atma’s energies (shakti) and the energies of the body?

Dadashri: The two energies are different.

Questioner: Do they affect each other?

Dadashri: Yes, of course they do! The energies of the body complex have put a stop to the energy of the Atma. When the energy of body complex is in excess, one’s bestial qualities increase.

Questioner: And what if the energy of the Atma is greater?

Dadashri: Bestiality decreases and humanity increases.

Questioner: Then what do we do to try and get the energy (shakti) of the Atma?

Dadashri: The energy (shakti) of the Atma is already there inside! The energy (shakti) of the Atma is the energy of the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma). And yet the Absolute Soul does not even have a speck of energy to break a single wafer (paapad), in spite of being the owner of infinite energy!

Questioner: It does not make any sense to me.

Dadashri: It has to make sense. Because if it does not make sense, it means that there is a slight misunderstanding. If it does not make sense, then it is not Gnan at all, and as long as there is ignorance (agnan) it will not make sense. Otherwise, it has to make sense, but for that, it requires you to take some time and become familiar with it.

Questioner: In what way?

Dadashri: By coming here and taking some time out especially to sit with the Gnani Purush, who will familiarize you.

The Self has infinite energy of Knowledge (Gnan shakti), it is not as though it just has one or two energies (shakti). It is

on account of the Atma’s infinite energy of Knowledge, that knowledge of astrology, law, medicine, and all other knowledge has been discovered. The energy of Knowledge is so astounding, that it has the ability to expose all the subjects inherent in each knowledge. Therefore, the Atma is the owner of infinite energy. It has infinite energy of Knowledge (Gnan shakti), and infinite energy of the Self (virya shakti). Such a magnificent array of energies that the Parmatma displays!

Patel Is the Neighbor and the Self Is in the Parmatma

Questioner: What does the Atma look like? Does it appear as a brilliant light (tejasvi), or is it in some other form or shape (aakruti)?

Dadashri: It is neither with form (aakruti), nor is it formless (niraakruti). Formless and form are all man’s imagination; an intellectual subject. The Atma is nothing but the Atma; it is in the form of light (prakash swaroop). It is a kind of light that needs no origin or support. That is the radiance of the Atma’s light! It can even travel through mountains; that is how the Atma is! And that is the kind of Atma in which ‘I’ reside! That is why, should someone verbally abuse or beat this A. M. Patel (Dada’s worldly name); it would not affect ‘me’. I am separate; Patel is separate! Patel is the neighbor and the one carrying out interactions in the world (vyavahar) is Patel.

Atma: Sakaari (With Form) or Nirakari (Without Form)

Questioner: It is said that God is the abode of light (tejtej na ambaar); faultless, free from ignorance and darkness; free of karma ( niranjan) and shapeless (nirakari).

Dadashri: And God also has a shape (sakaari).

Questioner: You say it like this and you also say it like that.

Dadashri: “By relative viewpoint”, God has a form (sakaari), and “by real viewpoint”, God is formless (nirakari).

Questioner: Where do we go to learn this beyond-the-world (alaukik) language?

Dadashri: You learn it right here!

Your name is Chandubhai, even when you were little, it was Chandubhai, and after you got married, is it still not Chandubhai?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Then whose husband did you become? Based on what? Were you a husband before?

Questioner: No, I was not before.

Dadashri: But are you not one and the same? That is exactly what I am saying, that when you meet a nimit (a person instrumental in an event), it is because of that relationship that you are called husband. This is relative talk. That is how God becomes with form (sakaar), on account of this relationship; whereas without any relationship, God is formless (nirakari).

So if you want to worship the formless God and if you want to know the formless, then you should go to a God that has form. The formless God is not visible to the eyes, and you will not be able to understand him with your intellect (buddhi). There is no way that you will be able to understand the formless, but you should go to the God that has form, in whom the formless God is manifest.

Here amongst humans, whom can you consider God in human form? The Gnani Purush! In whose human form is manifest the flawless and the formless? He is called the manifest God (sakaar Bhagwan)!

Questioner: But if I want to imagine the Atma’s form, how should I imagine it?

Dadashri: You do not have to imagine its form. Instead, you just have to sit with a God who has shape and form (the One in whom God has manifested). The God with form is himself the form of the Atma! The Atmagnani, who has a body, is called a God with form (sakaari Bhagwan).That is how you should imagineit, and with that you worship his entire temple (his body in which God has manifested). Otherwise, the Atma has no form whatsoever.Itsformless nature, youwill have to discover from the Gnani Purush! Thereafter, you will comprehend its nature and it will fit (make sense), so that you will never forget it.

So the Atma has no form; it is formless. Nevertheless, by nature what is the Atma like? Whichever body it is in, it will assume its form; it is in the form of the body it occupies. But there in the realm of Liberated Souls (Siddha gati), in the last stage of its form, a third of its form is reduced. Therefore, only two-thirds of its form remains in the final life before liberation (charam deha).

So the body coming from the fifth ara (present age of the time-cycle) is vastly different to the body that comes from the third ara (age of the time cycle). The height there is different from the height of this era. But the form that arrives at the realm of the Liberated Souls (Siddha gati) will be according to the final body through which moksha is attained (charam sharira). But the Atma is formless ( nirakar)!

Questioner: Is there anything like a shadow over there? What is over there?

Dadashri: No, there is nothing like shadow over there. There is nothing like that out there. Shadow is the non-Self body complex (pudgal).

Questioner: If we move our hands about in the air and catch nothing, when we do the same in final liberation (moksha), would we hit anything?

Dadashri: No. If you move your hands around like this, you would not catch anything in your hand. Even if you wave a burning torch through it, it will not burn the Atma. And if you move your hand through it, the Atma does not touch your hand. That is what the Atma is like. If you rubbed ice over that Atma, it would not turn cold, and if you put a sword through it, it will not be cut.

Questioner: Should it not have some sort of form even then?

Dadashri: It is a formless form (nirakari aakaar), a flawless, formless form (niranjan nirakari-aakaar). Its form is not what you imagine it to be. It has its own natural form.

Where in the Body Is the Soul Not Present?

Questioner: The Atma does not appear on an x-ray, nor can it be captured in photography or any other way.

Dadashri: Yes, the Atma is very subtle (sookshma); therefore it is not palpable! It cannot be caught on camera, nor is it visible to the eyes. You cannot even see it through a microscope, binoculars or any other instrument. You cannot see it with anything; that is how subtle it is.

Questioner: So I wonder where the Atma could be.

Dadashri: Even if it were surrounded by flames, the flames would not touch it. That is how subtle it is.

Questioner: But where is it located in the body?

Dadashri: The question is, where is the Atma not located in the body? The Atma is not in the hair, and in the nails; it is not in the part of the nail that we clip. Everywhere else in the body, there is Atma. So you do not have to ask, where the Atma is in the body, but you need to ask, where in the body the Atma is not.

There is no Atma in the part of hair we cut off. If someone cut your hair in your sleep, you would not know it, because there is no Atma there. But in the places where there is Atma, you would feel the prick of a pin right away.

Questioner: Generally, is Atma not in the brain? And is it not because of the nerves that we feel the pin prick?

Dadashri: No. The Atma is in the entire body. There is only the brain in the head, which is machinery. It is a tool that provides internal information. The Atma exists throughout the body. If a thorn slightly pricked you on the foot, would you not immediately feel it?

So what you see is indeed a “photo” (image) of the Atma. The only thing is, that it is covered up with layers. Otherwise it is the same photo. The Atma’s photo then, remains the same.

So you know that the Atma is present, in whichever part of the body you poke a pin and you feel it. Would you not even feel it, if someone poked you with a pin in the night? When you feel pain anywhere on the body, from a pin prick, it is the Atma that knows it. Or else, if the Atma has gone, no matter how many times you poked the body with a pin, Chandubhai would not utter a word or flinch at all.

Questioner: Can we say that the Atma feels pain?

Dadashri: The Atma can never feel pain. If you put a burning flame on ice, will it burn the ice?

Questioner: It does not hurt when we cut our hair, so does that mean the Atma is not there?

Dadashri: No, it is not there.

Questioner: So where we feel pain, the Atma is there?

Dadashri: Yes, there is Atma there.

Questioner: So if it is affected by pain and pleasure, then does it not become worldly (sansari)?

Dadashri: No. The Atma does not become worldly (sansari). It remains in its original state. It is the atma that you understand, that has become worldly. What you consider to be the Atma, is that which has become worldly (sansari), and it is this atma that is mechanical. So as long as you put petrol (fuel) in it, it will work; otherwise it stops. Within half an hour to an hour, if you kept your nose pinched, the machine would stop. That is why people believe that the mechanical atma is the Atma. They have never seen the real Atma, nor have they even heard about the real Atma, so they try to still (sthir) the mechanical atma. But the mechanical can never be stilled.

So there is no Atma in the hair that we cut, and the extra nail that we clip. When you cut your nail, in the area that stings, there is Atma. Moreover, the Atma is present throughout the entire body.

Questioner: But in yogic scriptures, it says that the Atma is in the brahmarandhra (the aperture at the crown of head).

Dadashri: All that is fine for yogic scripture. Do you want to know the truth? Do you want to know about that which is worldly (laukik) or about that which is not of this world (alaukik)? There are two kinds of knowledge: one that works in the world and the other is the knowledge of reality ( vaastavik). Do you wish to know the real or the worldly?

Questioner: I want to know both of them.

Dadashri: If you want to know the worldly (laukik) knowledge; then the Atma is located in the heart, and if you want to know the real (alaukik) knowledge, then the Atma is found throughout the body. If you want to know the worldly (laukik), then this world has been created by God, and if you want to know the real (alaukik), then God has not created this world.

Questioner: It is also said that the Atma in the heart, is the size of a thumb.

Dadashri: No. There is no substance whatsoever in all those conceptions.

Belief Versus Fact

Questioner: But there is a statement in the Upanishad: Angushtha maatra praman –If you want to see the Atma’s image in your heart, meditate so that you can see it as the size of your thumb.

Dadashri: It is not a scientific statement. If it was scientific, I would go on. It is just a way of making still and steady, a person who is at a certain spiritual level. It is not entirely wrong, how can you say it is wrong? If something can make a person still, you cannot say that it is wrong! So the heart is where the gross mind (stool mun) is located, and it progresses from there. If you take this to heart, you can progress further. And what prevents you from moving ahead? The intellect (buddhi) does not allow you to progress, but what you hold in your heart will let you move ahead. If you want to go to final liberation (moksha), then you can do it with the help of your heart. So your heart will be needed. The intellect will not do.

They have only managed to scare people by saying that the Atma is the size of the thumb. The Atma is in relation to the body. The entire Atma is in proportion to the body, and all the karmas cling to it and are stuck on. And how is this? Does the resin not stick to the branches of trees? That is just how all the karmas have become stuck all over the Atma; in infinite locations (pradesh), infinite karmas are adhered. Whatever location becomes free of karma, is where the knowledge of that particular location arises. If the location (pradesh) of all the medical knowledge opens up, you would gain medical knowledge, while some would gain knowledge of law. Whichever location that opens up for whomsoever; the knowledge pertaining to that location (pradesh) will arise.

Now the Atma is whole. But only when a person loses a limb or any other organ, does the Atma shorten by that much. However, the mind is situated in the heart, which is the gross (sthool) location of the mind. The mind exists in the heart. Now the location of the subtle mind ( sookshma mun) is here on the forehead, two and a half inches in. And thegross mind(sthool mun) is situated in the heart.

The Soul Expands and Contracts According to the Receptacle

Questioner: Can the Atma ever be cut?

Dadashri: You cannot cut the Atma, split it or do anything to it.

Questioner: What if my hand is cut off from here?

Dadashri: The Atma will shrink by that much. The Atma’s natural property is to expand and contract, but even then, only in its state of worldly life ( sansar). But that is not the case in the Absolutely Liberated state (Siddha). In the worldly state (sansar), it can both contract and expand. Even in an ant, the Atma is whole. And in an elephant, there is only one whole Atma as well. But in the latter, it is expanded. When an arm or leg is cut off, the Atma contracts, and even then, only when a certain part is cut, does it contract. Then it does not contract any further!

Questioner: Just as it is throughout the human body, is it the same in an ant’s body or an elephant’s?

Dadashri: Yes, the Atma is in the entire body. That is because the Atma is a receptacle (bhaajan) of contraction-expansion. The Atma will expand according to the size of the vessel. If the vessel is small, the Atma will contract to fit into it.

Questioner: When it leaves the body here, they say that one end of the Atma is here, while the other end can be somewhere in Punjab (province). How is that? Can you explain?

Dadashri: The Atma is a receptacle of expansion and contraction, so it can stretch as far as it wants to. Therefore, it has to go where it has karmic ties (roonanubandha), does it not? Do you think it is going to walk all the way there? It does not have legs and a gross (sthool) body!

Questioner: So can it live in two places at one time?

Dadashri: Yes. It can stretch as far as it has to go. So when it begins to enter the new body over there, simultaneously it is leaving the body over here. Just as a snake leaves its burrow; part of it is outside and the other part is inside. It is similar to that!

Questioner: But even when they cut the body or split it open, you still cannot see the Atma.

Dadashri: The Atma is not something that you can see! But does it not leave when the body is cut up? When a person dies, who is it that leaves?

Questioner: The Atma leaves.

Dadashri: Yes, it leaves and yet you still cannot see it. But it is there for sure. It is a light; it is in the form of a light. All this is its light! If it is not there, then everything would end. Have you seen the body once the Atma has gone out of it? Have you seen death process (nanami)? Does the body still have light in it?

Questioner: No.

Dadashri: Then the Atma has left the body. So the Atma is itself in the form of light.

Does the Soul Re-enter the Same Body After Death?

Questioner: When the heart stops beating, we say that the person is dead.

Dadashri: And even the doctors say, ‘The man is gone.’ As long as the heart is beating, there is a pulse. And when there is no pulse, the doctors know that people cannot live without a pulse and so they tell us, ‘he is gone’.

Questioner: I have read about certain cases where people that have died, have come back to life. What can we make of that? Did the living soul (jiva) return to the body? Or did the Atma re-enter the body?

Dadashri: You are right; there are exceptions, where the pulse comes back. So what do the doctors think? They think that the jiva (living being) has returned. But that only happens in certain circumstances. That is when the jiva rises up to the crown of the head. It does not matter if the heart stops, but the soul (jiva) has risen all the way to the top of the head. So when it comes back down, the heart starts to beat again. That can happen. Even the doctors become perplexed. But the jiva that reappears, is not a new jiva. The jiva does not come again into the body, nor does another Atma enter the body. It is the same Atma that has not completely left the body. It has risen to the part above the heart. Here at the top of the head is brahmarandhra, known as the crown of the head, which is where it rises to. So if the soul (jiva) still remains in the body, then it is possible that it could happen. It happens sometimes, not very often, but you do get exceptions. If someone gets bitten by a snake or if someone suddenly falls into the water, then the soul (jiva) will rise up to the crown of the head (brahmarandhra). Then it becomes difficult to bring it back down. In this age, they do not know how to bring it down again. If it comes down naturally by itself then it is fine, and you would think that jiva has returned to the corpse. But normally that would not happen.

What Is Death? What Happens After Death?

Questioner: What is death?

Dadashri: Death is like this: say a shirt is stitched, then it would mean that the shirt is born. Once it is born, then it is inevitable that it will die! Anything that is born is bound to die. And the Atma is without birth and death (ajanma-amar); it never dies. Whatever is born, will one day die, and because there is death, it will be born. That is why birth is joined to death. Where there is birth there is bound to be death!

Questioner: But what in fact is death?

Dadashri: When you sleep at night, where do you go? And in the morning, where do you come from?

Questioner: I do not know that.

Dadashri: That is how birth and death are. During the interim you are asleep, and when you are born, you wake up. From the time you die, until the time you are born, you are sleeping. ‘You’ (the Self) are eternal; therefore birth and death do not happen for You! This birth and death is because of circumstances ( avastha). There may only be one person, but does he not have three circumstances (avastha)? Does he not have his circumstance of childhood, his circumstance of youth, and then the circumstance of old age? They are all circumstances, but is ‘he’ (the Self), not the same in all three? Those are the body’s circumstances (avastha). That birth and death is for the body; it is not the Atma’s birth and death. The Atma does not have birth and death. Your own Self does not have birth or death.

Questioner: So why does death occur?

Dadashri: What it is, is that when you are born, there is the mind, the speech and the body; these three batteries become effective in the womb. So once the effect runs out, your account with those batteries ends, but until that happens, the batteries remain. Once they are completely finished, is when they call it death. But then for the next life, new batteries continue to charge within, while the old batteries are discharging. That is because of one’s wrong belief. And so causes arise. As long as the wrong belief exists, there will be attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh), and causes will occur. And if the wrong belief changes and the right belief is instilled, attachment and abhorrence and causes will no longer arise.

Questioner: When the body dies, where does the Atma go?

Dadashri: The way it is, is that the Atma is eternal, it is permanent, it is forever. It does not have to come and go anywhere. And when the body dies, the Atma does not have a choice about where to go. Even that is in the control of scientific circumstantial evidence (vyavasthit shakti). So wherever the evidence takes it, it has to go. The only permanent thing in all this is the Atma, everything else is temporary. The mind, intellect, chit and ego are all temporary. And the Atma is such, that it is completely separate from this body. Just as this cloth and my body are separate, are they not? That is just how separate the body and the Atma are; completely and utterly separate.

So Many Adjustments of Nature

Questioner: At the time of death, while leaving one body and before entering another body, where and for how long and how, does it exist? How long does it take the soul (jiva) to enter a new body?

Dadashri: It hardly takes any time (samaya). It is here in the body, while it is leaving this body; it is already present in a womb (yoni) there. If the dying person is here in Baroda and the womb is in Delhi, then it is in that womb (yoni), and it is also here in the body. So there is no time lag in this. It cannot be without a body even for an instant.

Questioner: So how much time does it take to leave one body and acquire another body?

Dadashri: No time at all. It is here as well. Even while it is still leaving the body, it is over there in the womb (yoni). That is because there is timing involved, when the sperm and the ovum unite. When it is about to leave the body, first the union occurs over there, and once all that comes together, it leaves. If not, then it would not leave from here, because if it did leave, what would it eat over there? It may have gone there to the womb, but how would it sustain itself there? There is only the man’s sperm and the mother’s ovum, which it consumes out of hunger, the moment it arrives. Once it has eaten, it develops into an embryo. Is this not all scientific circumstantial evidence?!

So it does not even take long to leave from here. Now if over there, the time is not yet right for it, over here the dying will linger on, moaning from suffering. You would say, ‘Why are you not leaving yet? Hurry up and go’. And it would say, ‘No, they are still not ready for me over there!’ Do they not go on moaning at the last moment? When the adjustments are made over there, is when it starts to leave from here. And once it leaves from here, everything is methodical over there.

The Balance Sheet of the Current Life Dictates the Next Life- Form

Questioner: Is a person’s next birth based on the wishes (vaasna) of his life, before he dies?

Dadashri: Yes, according to the wishes (vaasna). Do they not say things like, before the person’s death, he had such and such a wish (vaasna)? But that vaasna is not something newly created by him. That is a balance sheet of one’s whole life. The balance sheet of whatever karma you did throughout your life, draws up during the final hour of your death. And it is this balance sheet that determines the next state of existence (gati).

Questioner: After death, not everyone is born again as a human being. Some become dogs or cows.

Dadashri: Yes, there is scientific circumstantial evidence behind that, many scientific causes come together. No one is a doer in any of this; neither God has done this, nor have you done any of it. You only believe that, ‘I did this’, which gives rise to the next life. When this belief of yours breaks, when the wrong belief and awareness of ‘I am the doer’ is destroyed, and you realize the Self, then indeed You are not the doer.

Questioner: But to realize this, do we have to leave all this behind and go to the Himalayas?

Dadashri: No, you do not have to go to the Himalayas. ‘We’ (Dadashri the Gnani Purush) can make you realize the Self within an hour. You do not have to become an ascetic (bava) and go off to the Himalayas. Hey, here you can just eat, drink and enjoy life, and realize the Self at the same time.

Questioner: But is it not said that the Atma acquires a human body every time?

Dadashri: No, no, no. That is what people have said, that it goes from a human body only to a human body. That was a kind of consolation, that just as wheat begets wheat, so does human begets human. So people think that everything is just fine, and all is well since they are going to be human again anyway! So why not take as many bribes as possible, and steal as much as they can? But that is not how it is.

There is a rule here: he that takes that which is not rightfully his, goes from having two legs (human life-form) to four legs (animal life-form). But even that does not go on forever either. At the very most, it will be for about two hundred years, perhaps seven to eight lifetimes at least, in the animal form, and the very least amount of time will be five minutes in the animal form, before returning to the human form. There are some living beings ( jiva) that can go through seventeen lifetimes in just one minute. So there are even living beings like that. Just because they go to the animal life-form, does not mean that they are all going there for a couple of hundred years.

Questioner: The living entities (jivas) from the human life-form, take their causal body (karan sharira) with them, along with the anger-pride-deceit-greed (kashays). But what do the living beings of the lower life-form bring with them?

Dadashri: They go there to relieve the load. Whatever load was gathered, whatever debt was incurred, they have to go there to pay off the debt. And if you have accrued credit, then you have to go and redeem that. If you have incurred credit, you have to go to the celestial realm (deva gati), or else stay in the human form and live like a king. And if you have incurred debt, you have to redeem it by becoming a bullock. It will have to be redeemed in a life as a buffalo, or a dog.

For many, it may not be possible for this debt to be paid off in just one lifetime, so that even when the life as a dog ends, because the debt remains pending, they assume the life of a donkey. And if the debt still remains even after that, then they may receive the avatar (birth; reincarnation) of a fox. But there are only eight of these avatars. There is no ninth avatar. The debt is paid off in eight avatars before one returns to the human form.

When a person dies over here, there are usually four or five people who are impartial, that carry him away. Listen to them talk. Those who are partial, would mean his family, and even his enemies would be considered partial. His enemies would say negative things about him, while his family would speak positively about him. And the person who is impartial will say something like, ‘This dear man was like a deva (celestial being)’. That itself would speak for his next life-form (gati). And some people will say, ‘Goodness, the man was like a monster!’ Whatever the opinions people create about him in this life, is a sign of which realm of existence (gati) he is heading for.

Moksha Is Needed by Those Who…

Questioner: When a person dies, he immediately gains another body, so why are people trying to attain final liberation (moksha)?

Dadashri: Those who have worries in the worldly life (sansar), who do not like those worries, who cannot endure the worries, are those that need liberation ( moksha).And those who like these worries would not need liberation at all! So everyone does not need liberation. Most foreigners (people outside India) can endure worry, so even they have no need for liberation. Even here, there are some people who can tolerate worry, so they do not need liberation either. Otherwise, those who cannot tolerate worry, and want to escape from this worldly life (sansar), are the ones who need liberation (moksha).

These Are the Laws of Nature

Questioner: Does every living being (jiva) have life after death?

Dadashri: Any living being after death, has life. Only certain living beings, who are Gnani Purush and who in activity (pravrutti) are non-doer (nivrut), have liberation!

Questioner: After liberation, is there rebirth?

Dadashri: No. After liberation, there is no birth.

Questioner: And after death?

Dadashri: After death, there is definitely rebirth for every living being (jiva).

Questioner: After death, is it the same soul (jiva) that is born or is it another soul (jiva) that takes birth?

Dadashri: The same jiva takes birth.

Questioner: So then why does the population increase?

Dadashri: It increases and then later, it decreases. It is a rule for the population to increase and decrease. The world is such that it just goes on increasing and decreasing! Now the population will decrease again.

Questioner: Will those living beings (jiva) live again?

Dadashri: After living, are those living beings going to die? They all went back to the animal form, to the same place they had come from.

After death, the Atma of the one heading for the celestial realm (deva gati), goes to the celestial realm, and the one that is heading towards the infernal realm (nark gati), travels to the infernal realm. Some go into the animal kingdom (jaanvar gati), and if it is to be reborn as a human, it will go into the human realm (manushya gati). And there are many souls (jiva), who receive a punishment, as a result of their unfolding karma, whereby for two or three years, they are doomed to wander around in a form without a body; as evil spirit (pretayoni).

So death is just like changing one’s clothes. Whatever is physical just disappears, or else it gets left behind, while the Atma receives another yoni (womb).

Questioner: How can one prove that after death, the Atma went somewhere else? Is there any evidence?

Dadashri: Of reincarnation (punarjanma)!

Questioner: Yes. And is it something a person can believe?

Dadashri: Yes, ‘we’ (the Gnani Purush) will give you proof so that you can believe that there is such a thing as rebirth (punarjanma). It is quite a long evidence. People are bound to ask for proof of whether there is rebirth, are they not?

How Long Will the Process of Rebirth Take?

Questioner: Who takes rebirth? Is it the living being (jiva) or the Atma?

Dadashri: No, no one has to take it, it just happens. This whole world is “It happens”.

Questioner: Yes, but who makes it happen? Does it happen through the jiva or the Atma?

Dadashri: No, the Atma has nothing to do with it. It all happens with the jiva. The one who wants worldly pleasures has the right to enter a womb ( yoni). And the one who does not want worldly pleasures, loses the right to enter a womb.

This is how it is. If you look at a sugar factory, at one end, they will be buying sugarcane, and at the other end you will see people stacking sacks of sugar in the stockpiles. Do you know what the steps are in between? At this end, they import the sugarcane, and first the sugarcane is cut, then it gets crushed, so in its second avatar (lifetime) it is crushed. From there it goes to its third avatar, then on to its fourth avatar and so on, until it is sugar. Sugar cannot be made in just one stage, or one avatar. So everything undergoes several stages of development until it arrives at its final stage.

The Atma is fully developed anyway. But this outside part, the part which is the clothing also needs to develop. Those in foreign countries are less “developed” (spiritually evolved), as they still do not understand reincarnation (punarjanma). Whereas those here, are developed (spiritually evolved), so that whether or not they understand reincarnation, there is still the belief in it. Even a little child will say that in the next life, such and such will happen. Therefore, whether you understand it or not, it is a different matter, you still believe in reincarnation

The Same Old Routine Life After Life

Questioner: Is every human being’s life related to his previous life (purvajanma)?

Dadashri: Every birth is itself a previous birth (purvajanma). So the connection of every birth begins with the previous life.

Questioner: But what does the past life have to do with this life?

Dadashri: Alas, for the next life, this life has become the previous life (purvajanma). The last avatar (birth) is the previous life (purvajanma), and that is why youhave this life. And this life is considered the past life (purvajanma) for the next life ( avatar).

Questioner: Yes, that is true. But does something occur in purvajanma (past life), so that it has some connection with this life?

Dadashri: It is full of connections! The seeds are sown in the past life, and in this life, they sprout. So is there not a difference between the seed and an ear of corn (doondoo)? Is there not a relationship? When you sow a millet seed, it is previous life, and when it sprouts, it is this life. And if from this plant another seed falls, it is previous life (purvajanma), and the seedling that sprouts from it will be the new birth. Did you understand that or not?

Questioner: A man is walking on a road and there are many other people on the same road, but a snake only bites that particular man. Is rebirth (punarjanma) the reason for that?

Dadashri: Yes, That is exactly what I am trying to tell you, that there is indeed another life (punarjanma). That is why the snake bites you. If there was not a life after, then the snake would not have bitten you. There is reincarnation and it is your account that you are paying off. All these are just karmic accounts that are being settled. Just as the accounts in book-keeping are settled, that is how all the accounts of karma are settled. And it is because of development that you are able to understand these accounts. That is why people are beginning to feel, ‘we have rebirth (punarjanma)’ and they have started to believe in it! But they cannot say for sure that there is reincarnation ( punarjanma). No one can give them definite proof that it is there. However, because they have seen many of these examples, that reincarnation does in fact exist, it has become established in their faith.

This lady will ask why the other lady is blessed with such a nice mother-in-law, and why she is unfortunate to have hers! So you will come across all sorts of different circumstances.

The Planning Is the Origin of Karma

Questioner: Does one receive the good or bad result of karma in this life or the next?

Dadashri: The karma that is done is in the form of a plan (yojana). Just as the government makes plans, like building a dam on the Narmada River. Now at this time, would the plan stop the water from flowing here? That will only happen when the plan materializes over here, and the dam is constructed. Otherwise, in the planning, everything is mapped out completely, including the dam, but it is still just on paper! That is how all the karma occur in the form of a plan, which we call causes. And then when those very causes take form, then it is called effect. But they take shape in the next life ( avatar; birth), which means that you are experiencing the karma of the previous life, and the karma of this life, you will experience in the next life. But these karmas are in the form of a plan, that you will experience in the next life.

Do you not find that right now, although you may not wish it, the karma still happens anyway?

Questioner: Yes, it does.

Dadashri: Why is that? It is because it was already in the form of a plan. And today it has materialized (come into effect),

so that if you were actually doing it today, you could still make some changes to it. Do you not find that you cannot make any changes? Do you not come across that?

Planning in the Past Life; Effect in This Life

Questioner: So is there such a thing as fate (kismat)?

Dadashri: That which is fate (kismat), is effect (prarabdha); the stock brought from the previous life, that is being used (unfolding) today.

Questioner: So if we committed any bad deeds (paap), in the last life, would we face its consequences in this life, or would we have already dealt with it in the past life?

Dadashri: No. The results of transgressions (paap) done in the past life are rendered in this life only. It is that the transgressions you did in the last life; occurred as a plan. If you had to build a dam on the Narmada River, what would happen first? Would they not draw out a plan first? That is how they ( karmas) happen first, as a plan (cause), and then now, they materialize (effect) in this life. They do the planning for the dam, then it is mapped out on paper, and if at the time, the map tears at the spot where the dam is, would the water come gushing out? No, it would not. So you will be able to make changes on the map, but you would not be able to do that later on. You could have made changes during the planning stage in your past life, but how can you make any changes to it now? Therefore, any changes that you make now, will be changes for the next life. If not, then in the next life, the stamp will be given and sealed according to destiny (vidhata) and it cannot be turned around.

Questioner: If the planning is done in the past life, then when will I do the planning in this life?

Dadashri: The internal planning goes on in each and every birth, and without the planning nothing can progress.

Questioner: If all the things in this life happen according to the planning in the past life, then how can I do the planning for my next life?

Dadashri: Let me tell you how the planning happens. If in this life, the planning does not happen at all, then final liberation (moksha) will occur.

Now, planning means to charge karma. While the old karma is being discharged, a new one is being charged within. How is it charged? How does the planning occur? Right now, someone might tell you, ‘I donated twenty-thousand rupees to a charity.’ And when you ask him, ‘sheth (boss), you would never give away twenty-thousand rupees to anyone, so how did you manage to give it in this case?’ He would reply, ‘I was forced into it by so and so person.’ Therefore, although he gave twenty-thousand (as his karmic effect from past life), but his planning (cause of next life) is negative. If he had given the money with a higher inner intent (bhaav), as far as the planning, the seed would have been sown accordingly and he would have reaped a greater reward (in his next life).

Now if a person commits any kind of violence (himsa), and he feels what he did was wrong and is truly remorseful, then the planning happens according to that. Also, if you tell a lie and in your mind your inner intent (bhaav) is that it is a wrong thing, then that is how the planning will go.

Now there is only one cause for birth and death, and that is the lack of awareness of ‘who You are’, which is the only cause. In Jainism it is said that it is because of attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh) and ignorance (agnanta), that one becomes bound; whereas in Vedanta, it says that one is bound because of mudd (impurity), projection through illusion (vikshep) and ignorance of the Self (agnanta). They both agree on ignorance (agnan). Therefore, a person is bound through ignorance of the Self (agnan), and is set free through Knowledge of the Self (Gnan). When you realize your own Self, is then you become free.

…And the Decisions Remain

Over here, however many falsely ascribed intents (aropit bhaav), you have made, they are all worldly intents (sansari bhaav). And because of those worldly intents (sansari bhaav), other parliamentary members (mind, intellect, chit and ego) come together. All these members, having come together, collectively come to a decision, and effective (karya) body is made. Then, effect and causes, causes and effect, effect and causes …just continually go on and on.

Is this name ‘Chandubhai’ effective or not? If someone said, ‘That Chandubhai that owns the cinema is a bad person!’ just saying that, will have an effect on you. Is this body effective or not? Even this speech is effective too. Does your speech not have an effect on some people? And even the mind is effective. If the mind becomes restless, it will not let you sleep. One gets ready for bed at ten-thirty at night. Everyone says, ‘Chandubhai, go to bed’, so he goes to bed. He then remembers that he has lent someone twenty-five thousand rupees, but he still has not got it in writing. As soon as he has this thought, his mind becomes restless and it will not let him sleep. So is the mind not ‘effective’ also?

Therefore, the mind, speech and body are all effective. They give rise to causes. From the attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh), that occur through them; causes arise, which is the causal body, that will become the effective body, in the next life. The causal body is referred to as karan sharira, and effective body as the karya sharira (the active body giving effects).

Therefore, after it becomes a causal body (karan sharira), the parliamentary process comes together. After the parliamentary process (interaction of mind, intellect, chit and ego) has occurred, only the decisions of the parliament remain, while the members of the parliament all leave. Each of those decisions, continue to be passed one by one. All the decisions made during the planning, keep passing and come into effect (rupak). You will have to understand this, will you not?

With the Atma…

Questioner: If I am going to have another birth (punarjanma), then my Atma will go with me, will it not?

Dadashri: It comes with you! The Atma leaves from here. At that time, the kashays (anger-pride-deceit-greed) of the body and whatever else; is all swept up! That is because of the wrong belief you have, that ‘I am this’. And when you say ‘I am’, it would mean that everything then becomes mine; therefore anger-pride-deceit-greed, occur. When the Atma leaves, the anger-pride-deceit-greed, are swept up and it leaves. And it leaves the body in such a way, making sure that nothing is left behind.

Now with the Atma, what else goes along? Along with it go the karan sharira, which is the causal body and the subtle body ( sookshma sharira), which is referred to as the electrical body. As long as this gross body exists, and as long as it is sansari (involved in worldly life interaction), there is an electrical body in every soul (jiva). And when you go to the final liberation (moksha), that electrical body is released, and the real form (swaroop) of the Atma alone goes.

Here, a Guarantee of Just One More Life!

Questioner: Once the vision (darshan) of the Atma’s real form (swaroop) is attained, the living being (jiva) remains constantly in the form of the Atma, so does the living being still have to go through another birth (punarjanma)?

Dadashri: No. However, one more avatar (lifetime) still remains before final liberation (moksha). That is because this is according to my Agnas (directives). To follow the Agnas is considered the absence of adverse meditation (dharma dhyan).

And you have to stay for one avatar (lifetime) to reap the rewards for that, and it would feel as though you already have liberation (moksha) right here! What would be the point if you did not experience liberation (moksha) here and now? Otherwise you would only get conned by everyone in this Kaliyug (Current era of the time cycle characterized by lack of unity in thought, speech and action). If you sent someone you know, out to buy vegetables, he would take out a commission, is there any telling about Kaliyug? So it (moksha) has to be guaranteed. This is the guarantee ‘we’ give you. Then, the amount of benefit you receive; will depend on how much You abide by ‘our’ Agnas. Besides, the awareness of your own Self will be with you all the time, it will be there continuously. Even when you are at work in the office, that awareness will be there. If the work is a bit sticky (demanding), then after you finish that work, the awareness will come back.

If the deed is sticky (difficult), it would be like water coming out of a half-inch pipe, and if you put your hand under the tap, it would not move under its stream. But if you held your hand out, under a one and a half inch pipe where the water is gushing out with force, your hand will move away. There are many heavy sticky karmas like that, then they can really shake you up. We do not have any problem with that either. Because do you not want to clear your accounts in just one lifetime? You cannot go to final liberation (moksha) without clearing your karmic accounts (hisaab)!

Questioner: If we do not clear our accounts (hisaab), does it mean we have to go through rebirth (punarjanma)?

Dadashri: Yes, that is precisely why there is rebirth (punarjanma). So the karmic account (hisaab) has to be completely cleared and then you can get somewhere.

Illusion Is the Cause of Birth and Death

Questioner: So that would mean that if there is another birth, then it is the same Atma that goes there?

Dadashri: Yes, that very Atma, no other.

Questioner: So then can we not say that even the Atma takes birth again?

Dadashri: No. The Atma can never be born. It is not the Atma’s nature (swabhav) to take birth. Birth happens to the non-Self complex ( pudgal), and death also happens to the non-Self complex. But because it has this belief that ‘I am this (Chandubhai)’, it has to be dragged along. Otherwise, in this it is the non-Self complex that takes birth and it is the non-Self complex that dies!

Questioner: But is the Atma not with the non-Self complex (pudgal)?

Dadashri: It is because of illusion (bhranti) that it is with the non-Self complex; otherwise, when the illusion goes away, the Atma and the non-Self complex have nothing to do with each other. Once the illusion (bhranti) has gone, whatever was charged becomes discharged, which means that it is all finished, and nothing new will be charged.

In any of the karmas that take place right now, if you say, ‘I am the owner’ of those karmas, and if you say, ‘I did them’, then a new account (hisaab) is created. And if you understand that it was all done by scientific circumstantial evidence (vyavasthit), and that ‘I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)’, then you have nothing to do with karma.

Questioner: Then there would not be another birth?

Dadashri: Yes, then you are free. But in this age (kaad), it is not possible to have a complete discharge. It means that the force of the karma is so overwhelming that it takes one or two lifetimes. Once the intent (bhaav) of doership ends, then that is it, it is finished, no more karma are bound.

Questioner: I want to know your thoughts about past  karma . For example, what kind of karma do these miniscule insects do that would help them in their future lives?

Dadashri: Unlike humans, any other beings that do karma do not have consequences. They just do their karma and then they are freed.

Questioner: So what life-form do insects have in the next life? Will an insect stay an insect?

Dadashri: No. From being an insect, they will have a second avatar (birth) and a third avatar. It goes into another place of creation (yoni) and day by day it sheds its karma. It can only suffer the karma that it had bound, it cannot bind new karma. Only humans can bind new karma. Even the celestial beings (devas) are enduring their karma. The celestial beings endure credit (merit karma), and animals suffer debit (demerit karma), while humans suffer both credit and debit. However, although humans suffer them, they also become doers and so they bind new karma.

Questioner: Is this body not the result of karma?

Dadashri: Yes, it is indeed the result of karma.

Questioner: Does karma not have to be completely discharged?

Dadashri: If there is complete discharge of karma (nirjara) then one goes to the abode of Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra). However, when the chit (inner component of knowledge and vision) becomes pure (shuddha), you can say that the discharge of karma (nirjara) has occurred.

Forces of Discharge Cause Charging in Ignorance

Just as the cells of a battery are charged (with energy), that is how the body has also been charged. There is no life (chetan) in the body. The life lies within; the life is in the Atma. The body is chetan that has been charged!

Man does not have the power (shakti) to sleep, he does not have the power to wake up, the power to go, or the power to come; he has absolutely no power whatsoever in him. Humans only have the power to charge, and even that is not their own independent power(shakti), but it is the result of force exerted by the discharge that incites the charging! If man had the independent power (shakti) to charge, he would never have been able to go to final liberation (moksha). That is because he would be considered liable and if he becomes liable, then he could never go to moksha.

You simply believe, ‘I am doing this’! But it happens because of the force of discharge (of karma), and when there is too much pressure, the charging just happens. So it is primarily ignorance of the Self that hinders you. Once the ignorance leaves, liberation is at arm’s length.

Causes Result in the Cycles of Birth and Death

Questioner: At death, what sort of state is the Atma in?

Dadashri: It is in the same state as it is in right now. There will be no change to its state. Only that upon death, it leaves the physical (sthool) body behind; it does not leave anything else behind. It only takes other circumstances along with it. Which other circumstances? The karmas that are bound, anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh) and the subtle body (sookshma sharira), are all the things that goes with it. The only thing that stays behind is the physical body (sthool sharira). The clothing (body) is useless now, so it is discarded.

Questioner: And it acquires a new body?

Dadashri: Yes. All it does is change clothing, but nothing else changes. Because, as long as ignorance (of the Self) prevails, seeds are constantly being sown, and only after they are sown, does it move ahead, but once it has Gnan, it is freed. When one becomes aware of ‘Who am I?’ one becomes free.

After death, there is birth and after birth there is death. That is all that continually goes on. Now why do births and deaths occur? It is because of, causes and effects, effects and causes; however, if in this cycle of cause and effect, the causes are destroyed, all the effects will end, and then one will not have to take another birth.

If you have created causes throughout your entire life; where would these causes of yours, go? And if you have created causes, they will not hold back from giving you the results of their effects. Do you understand that you had created causes?

Every deed (karya) gives rise to causes. If someone says you are worthless, causes of retaliation will arise within you, that would say, ‘Your father must be worthless’. That would be considered your cause. The person who calls you worthless is clearly within the law (of karma); whereas do you not understand that you are indeed the one who has stepped out of the law? Why are you not saying anything?

Questioner: That is right.

Dadashri: So causes occur in this life and their effects will have to be experienced in the next life.

Here, effective moha (illusory attachment) is considered causal moha. You only believe, ‘I am getting angry’. But it is only because of illusion (bhranti), that this anger is there. Otherwise, it is not anger at all; it is an effect (of past life). And when all the causes have been stopped, all that remains is the effect, and since the causes have stopped; he is not responsible for the effect. Effect will not stop showing its outcome.

The Gnani Destroys the Cycle of Birth and Death

What is the real nature of the Self? The original  Atma, the exact Atma, is pure Self (shuddha chetan) and is itself the Absolute Soul (Parmatma); however, that which the world considers to be soul (chetan) is actually lifeless life (nischetan chetan). If you heat a ball of iron, it becomes like fire (red hot), which is just how lifeless life (nischetan chetan) is. (It appears alive, but it is not. It appears to be Atma, but it is not).

What is lifeless life (nischetan chetan)? Something that is being charged in the presence of the original Self (muda chetan), which then continues to discharge, is referred to as nischetan chetan. The components (parmanus; subatomic particles) have been charged and the charged parmanus are called karan or causes. These causes accumulate throughout a person’s life and when he dies, these causes or the causal body (karan sharira), will in the next life become the effective body (karya sharira).

The effective body means that the three batteries of the mind, speech and body are ready, and from them, new causes continue to arise. So in this life, the mind, speech and body continue to discharge, while on the other hand, a new charging is occurring within. The batteries of the mind, speech and body that are being charged, are for the next life, while these are from the past life, that are discharging in this life. The Gnani Purush stops the new charging and so the old ones continue to only discharge.

So after death, the soul migrates to another yoni (place of birth). Until a person realizes the Self, the soul wanders around from one yoni to another. As long as one becomes engrossed (tanmayakar – to become one with) with the mind, engrossed with the intellect (buddhi), the worldly life (sansar) exists. That is because, to become engrossed (tanmayakar), means to sow a seed in the place of creation (yoni), and Lord Krishna has told us that the worldly life exists because the seed is sown in the place of creation. Once the seed is no longer sown in the place of creation, one’s worldly life ends.

Five Senses Only for One More Life!

Questioner: When a living being (jiva) takes another birth, do all the five senses and the mind go with it?

Dadashri: No, no, nothing at all. All the senses are exhausted and they end. The senses have died. So, none of the senses or anything else goes along with the Atma. Only anger-pride-deceit-greed goes along with it. In the causal body (karan sharira), anger-pride-deceit-greed everything, is included. And the subtle body (sookshma sharira), what is that like? It stays together with the Atma, until it attains final liberation (moksha ). No matter where the birth occurs, this subtle body (sookshma sharira) is always with it.

Nevertheless, all the senses and everything else, dies. And from the causal body, a new one arises. The senses have only arisen for the sake of being exhausted, so they are constantly being exhausted. And as they become exhausted, they finish. So when you ask a dying man, ‘say something! Uncle say something’, he would just utter, ‘le, le, le…’, that is because the tongue has gone and he cannot speak anymore, his speech is exhausted and finished. The same thing happens to the eyes. Even the ears are affected; therefore everything becomes exhausted. So these senses or anything else do not go with it. It will receive new and fresh senses. The eyes will be first class, the ears will be first class. Then just keep listening to the radio with your earplugs!

How Long Does the Relationship With the Subtle Body Last?

So the Atma alone does not leave the body after death. The Atma is accompanied by the karmas, referred to as the causal body (karan sharira). And thirdly, the electrical body goes with it too.The threeleave together.As long as the worldly life ( sansar) exists, every living being (jiva) certainly has an electrical body within it! When thecausal body (karan sharira) is created, the electrical body is definitely there with it. The electrical body forms a natural part of the existence of every living being (jiva), and is always there. It is because of it, that you function. When you eat, it is the electrical body that carries out the digestion. It is involved in the production of blood, the circulation of blood which is all done internally. It is the electrical body that is responsible for the light that allows your eyes to see. Even anger-pride-deceit-greed, happens because of the electrical body. The Atma does not have anger-pride-deceit-greed at all. All this anger and everything, is attributed to the electrical body.

Questioner: So during charging, is it the electrical body that is at work?

Dadashri: Only when there is an electrical body, can charging take place, and unless the electrical body is there, nothing happens. And even if the electrical body is there, but the Atma is not there, nothing will happen. These are all collective causes.

Questioner: When a living being (jiva) dies, how does the electrical body (tejas sharira) go with it?

Dadashri: For how long does the electrical body (tejas sharira) remain? It is there as long as a balance of karma remains. Once the balance of karma is finished, there will be no more electrical body. So it remains until the lifetimes end (one attains moksha). In every living being, in trees and everything, there is an electrical body, and if that electrical body was not there, how would they function? In English, the tejas sharira is called the electrical body. And without electricity, nothing would work in the home, and you would not be able to see anything. If electricity stops, then that is it, everything ends!

It is just like, if you light the stove to heat water, no matter how many gallons of water you have, it will eventually all disappear, will it not?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: The water itself has a gross (sthool) form, and that which evaporates away, has a subtle (sookshma) form. In the same way, the body has a gross (sthool) form which you can see, but the other subtle (sookshma) form is one you cannot see. But the subtle body (sookshma sharira) is very much like this one, there is nothing different in it. The subtle body means the electrical body itself!

Questioner: But at the time when the soul (jiva) leaves, how does the causal body (karan sharira), and the electrical body (tejas sharira) go with it? Why does anything else not leave with it?

Dadashri: If you boil water, the hydrogen and oxygen in the water, will evaporate together! And later, even they separate. But when they evaporate, they evaporate together. They separate and then come back together. That is an account (hisaab). It is because of the karmic account that the electrical body stays bound to the Atma. That is why there is no other mixing. That electrical body remains the same, life after life, throughout its existence, and nothing on the outside can touch it. Just as this physical body does not allow another physical body to fuse with it, the same is true for the subtle body (sookshma sharira). The only difference is that the gross and tangible (sthool) body is visible to the eyes; whereas the subtle body is not. There is even a form to it, and everything else, except you can see the physical body and you cannot see the subtle body; that is all. So there is no mixing of any kind. The subtle body does not mix with anything else. There is the ‘my-ness’ (mamata) in this physical body and there is the ‘my-ness’ in the subtle body as well.

It is like this: as long as there is the state of worldly life (sansar avastha), the subtle body stays with it. The state of worldly life (s ansar avastha) means the state of illusion (bhranti). It is there, as long as the subtle body is there.

Questioner: So within the subtle body, is the Atma separate, or is it bound?

Dadashri: It is separate, it is not bound. It is the vyavahar atma (the atma which interacts with the world), that is bound, but the real Atma is not bound. The word atma that you use in worldly interaction (vyavahar) is the one which is bound.

Questioner: When another birth is taken, is it the subtle body that takes birth?

Dadashri: Yes, why not just say that it is the ego that takes birth! We do not know the subtle body, nor have we ever seen the subtle body. You learned how to say the word, sookshma sharira, but even that is just from reading in a book. So it is the ego itself that takes birth, just say that! Do you know the ego or not? It is the ego that acquires a new body, again and again. There is the atma of worldly interaction (vyavahar atma) and there is the real Atma. The real Atma is unbound and indeed pure.

All these problems are the problems of the ego. If the ego goes away, you attain liberation (moksha). That is all there is to it. You will be able to understand this in short, will you not?

The subtle body (sookshma deha) that we talk about is what goes into the next life. You understand that fact, do you not? Otherwise how else can the subtle be known? The subtle is something different; only the Gnanis can understand it. People merely say subtle body, subtle body, because they have read it in books. But when they do not understand even the sthool (gross), how are they going to understand the sookshma (subtle)?

Who Is Stuck onto Whom?

Questioner: Is the Atma stuck to the body (pudgal) or is the body (pudgal) stuck to the Atma?

Dadashri: The fact is; nothing is stuck to anything. Everything is instrumental (naimitik). Only in worldly interaction (vyavahar) do people say, ‘the soul has stuck to it’. That is why people say things like, ‘why don’t you just let go of this tree you are holding on to!’ But is it so easy to let go? These are all scientific circumstantial evidences.

Questioner: But it seems as though the Atma is stuck to the pudgal. It happens because the Atma becomes involved (tanmayakar) with the non-Self complex (pudgal).

Dadashri: That is mandatory for the soul.

Questioner: Why is it mandatory for the soul? Who made it mandatory?

Dadashri: The way it is, is that the Atma (Soul) is chaitanya (has attribute of knowledge and vision) and the pudgal is jada (matter), so when you put the two together, vishesh bhaav (meaning ego, ‘I am Chandubhai’) arises. No one is actually doing anything, but because the two come together, the extra intent (vishesh bhaav) arises, and because of the vishesh bhaav, worldly life (sansar) is created. But as the soul comes into its real form and realizes, ‘Who am I?’; it is released, and that is also when the body (pudgal) leaves!

Questioner: How did the two get so close to one another?

Dadashri: That indeed is this evidence! All this comes together upon entering worldly interaction (vyavahar). Here worldly interaction (vyavahar) is full of circumstances (saiyogo), and we have to go where there are no circumstances, to the Siddha pad (state of Absolute Liberation). And for that, you find help from scriptures or the Gnani Purush, so you realize your own form (swaroop;the Self), and from that point onwards begins the liberation. Therefore, after one lifetime, two lifetimes or even fifteen lifetimes, you achieve your goal!

So the chetan (Atma) itself does not fall into the cycle of the pudgal (body; non-Self complex) at all. The mere fact that you feel that it has, is illusion (bhranti). When the illusion moves further away, there is only separation!

The Atma Is Pure; Only the Belief Is Wrong

Questioner: The Atma, in its original nature (swabhav) is pure, so how have these kashays (anger, pride, deceit and greed) affected it? How have the karmas come to be bound?

Dadashri: That is a science! If we keep a piece of iron here, and if that iron were living, it would say, ‘Do not let me rust’. But the rule of science is that if it comes into contact with other circumstances (saiyogo), it is bound to rust. In the same way, the Atma’s fundamental nature is pure, but because of the pressure from circumstances, it has picked up rust.

Questioner: Right now, the Atma is covered by karma, but once the Atma has shed all the karma, will it pick up rust again?

Dadashri: Until one comes into awareness of the Self, it goes on picking up the rust, and the rust continues to form. Because you have lost awareness, and you have a falsely ascribed intent (aropit bhaav), the rust still carries on. ‘I am Chandubhai’ is the false attribution (aropit bhaav),and therefore the rust is constantly building up. Once the false attribution goes away and you enter your own nature (swabhav; the Self), the rust will no longer form!

Questioner: In the very beginning, what must Atma be as its main substance that it picked up this rust?

Dadashri: All these elements are present in the universe (lok). And as long as they are in the universe, they will continually be affected by other elements. That is called scientific circumstantial evidence. When the Atma transcends beyond the lok (plains of existence; the universe), when it ascends to the Siddha gati (realm for Liberated Souls); there it will no longer pick up any rust.

This is how it is. No other  karmas have affected it. Only the karma, where awareness is lost, have adhered around it. Otherwise, the Self is pure. Even now your Atma is pure. Everyone’s Atma is pure, but because the external form (swaroop) has come about, it is in that form, your wrong belief has arisen. From birth, you are given ignorance (agnan) in that form.

It is the worldly life (sansar), so from the moment the baby boy is born, he is presented with the ignorance. And they willsay, ‘Oh, it is a boy, a boy, a baby boy!’ Then he is given the name Chandu, so they all start calling him ‘Chandu, Chandu’, so he starts believing, ‘I am Chandu’. Then they introduce him to his daddy, and they introduce him to his mummy, and all that ignorance is presented to him. Because then he is told, ‘You are Chandu, this is your mummy, this is your daddy’. He now has a wrong belief, which he cannot get rid of. Only when the Gnani Purush breaks that wrong belief, does the right belief set in, and it is then that things will be solved! So the Atma is really pure, but this is only a matter of the difference in the vision (belief).

Questioner: But how did this begin?

Dadashri: It is because of all the eternal elements coming together, that these situations arise! This worldly life (sansar) means the path of evolution (samsaran marg), and evolution (samsaran) means that it is constantly changing. And it is because of these changes that you feel that your Atma is impure; however I see your Atma as only being pure. It is only because of your wrong belief that you perceive it as being impure. I will fracture that wrong belief and replace it with the right belief, so even you will see it as pure.

This is just a deluded vision (mithya darshan) that has set in; where there is no happiness (sukh), you believe there is happiness there. When ‘we’ (Gnani Purush) give Gnan, a person finds the road in the right direction. And once he finds the path, things will fall into place. When ‘we’ change his deluded vision (mithya darshan) and give him the right belief (samyak darshan), things will be solved for him, but until then he will not have a solution.

The Atma is pure indeed. Your Atma is pure right now, but for the beliefs that are wrong, which have taken hold within you. And because of that, you believe that happiness (sukh) lies in temporary things. Whatever you see with your eyes, hear with your ears, taste with your tongue, “are all temporary adjustments”, so you believe that there is happiness (sukh) in those temporary things. At present you are under the influence of this wrong belief. When the wrong belief is fractured, you will no longer find happiness (sukh) from temporary things; you will find happiness in the permanent. Permanent happiness is eternal happiness; once it comes, it never leaves. That itself is regarded as attainment of the Atma, and the experience of the Self (swanubhav) state. With the experience of this state of the Self, one gradually moves on to the Absolute state ( purnahuti).

How Can There Be a Coming and Going for That Which Is Eternal?

Questioner: Where did all these living beings (jiva), these Souls in this world, come from?

Dadashri: No one has come. This entire world itself is a display of the six eternal elements (tattva). All the six elements make up the world which you see. It is just scientific circumstantial evidence! So no one has made this; no one has had to do anything. It has no beginning and it has no end. I am saying it as it is, that the world has no beginning, and no end. Only thing is that from one perspective you see the world, while the other perspective shows you liberation (moksha)! It is all a matter of changing one’s perception, that is all!

That which comes, can never be eternal, and the Atma is an eternal thing; therefore, it cannot have a coming and going. The Atma is not like that.

The First in the World…?

Questioner: So where were all the living entities (jivas) created?

Dadashri: These living entities have not been created. The Atma is indestructible (avinashi), and that which is indestructible can never be created. It is there forever. It cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed. No one has been created nor destroyed. All that you see is just an illusion ( bhranti). It is the circumstance (avastha) that comes to an end. The circumstance (avastha) of old age, the circumstance of youth; are all slowly destroyed, but the Self has always remained the same. So it is the phase that comes to an end.

Questioner: But there were no living beings (jivas) on our Earth before, were there? So where did they all come from?

Dadashri: Who said that they were not here?

Questioner: Science says so.

Dadashri: Science does not say that at all. Science accepts everything. This earth has never been without living entities (jivas).

Questioner: Vignan (science) also says that first came living entity (jiva srushti), and then came human beings (manushya srushti).

Dadashri: This Vignan was not around in those days.This world hasbeen around since time immemorial. It has not had a beginning and it is not going to come to an end.

Questioner: I often wonder who the first ancestor (purvaj) was to be born? But I have not found an answer.

Dadashri: If there were a first ascendant, it would mean that he had a beginning, and once there is a beginning, there is an end, so the world would end. But the world is not going to end, and has never had a beginning. So there is never any first ascendant at all. It is how it is, it is as it always was; it is as it is. It has been this way for aeons and it will be this way and it will stay this way forever! It means that it will carry on in the same way as it has gone on for time immemorial. It will go on forever.

Questioner: But scientists say the ape was here first.

Dadashri: There was no such ape. Call it an ape or anything else, but fundamentally, is it not Atma? And it is the Atma, that is in all yonis (place of creations), as is the non-Self (anatma). There is the body; the non-Self complex (pudgal) and there is also the Atma. So there is no such thing as the first ape. Out of all the innumerable places of birth (yoni), those living entities (jivas) only enter the particular place of creation they hold a karmic account (hisaab) with. Otherwise, the Atma has been in existence from time immemorial, as has the non-Self (anatma).

Questioner: It is said that a human being is bound to the worldly life (sansar), because of his past karma. So what kind of previous bondage did the first humans born on the planet, bring with them?

Dadashri: There is no first human being to be born. This world was never born. Anything that has a beginning certainly has an end. This world is not going to end and in the same way, it did not come into existence. The world has no beginning, nor does it have an end (anaadi anant). And all these humans and every living being in it; are all without beginning or end (anaadi anant). The living entity (jiva) in the tree or the minutest organisms are all forever in existence (anaadi anant- no beginning-no end)! There has never been an increase or decrease in their number; they are the same in number as they have always been!

Not a single soul (jiva) has increased and not a single

soul has decreased, is how the world is. Not a single subatomic particle (parmanu) has increased or decreased. Whether you burn them or do anything else to them, even then, from time immemorial, not a single subatomic particle (parmanu) has been lost or gained. That is how this world is.

So, the Atma has neither come, nor gone. This coming-going is just the language of the intellect (buddhi). When you come into the language of Gnan, you will understand that nothing like that has happened. It is because of the intellect that things appear that way to you. Once the intellect goes away and the ego goes away, you are indeed free. It is the intellect (buddhi) and the ego that have caused all this, and that is why you perceive things in this way.

Who Will Remove the Tangled Belief in Circumstances?

When a person goes outside, where does his shadow come from? From all the circumstances (saiyogo)! When the circumstance (saiyog) of the sun comes around, the shadow arises, and when a circumstance of a mirror comes about, there is a reflection. So all this has come about because of circumstance (saiyog), and it has completely altered your belief. The Self (swaroop) has remained the same, but it is the belief of ‘what has happened here?’ that changes.

A little bird pecks at a mirror, does it not? Does a little sparrow not peck at its own reflection in the mirror? Now a man would not do that. That is because he knows that it is his own photo (image/reflection) in the mirror. But the sparrow’s belief is altered, so that it perceives it as another bird and keeps pecking away at it. But when the experience is prolonged for several days, the belief breaks. That is just how the belief has altered. The entire belief has become wrong, which is why the ego (ahamkar) has arisen, and also why the intellect (buddhi)has arisen. As the light of the intellect (buddhi) is turned on, the intellect is now the support and guide, while the main light of the Atma gets turned off. That is why there is so much confusion! The Atma had not changed at all. Nothing about the Atma has been spoiled and neither has anything affected it.

When a person goes out, does his shadow not keep following him around? All this is just like a shadow. If someone gesticulates like this in the shadow, raises a finger in the air, raises two fingers in the air, turns to look this way and that way, and all that, would not you think that he had gone mad? In the same way, when a person attains the awareness of his own Self, it is as though nothing has happened, as he becomes free from circumstances. This is only a coming together of circumstances and nothing else. And if someone ran around in the street, trying to shirk off his shadow, would the shadow go away? If he ran this way, he would see it behind him, and if he turned around, he would still see it. So no matter which way he turned, would he not still see something? So the shadow will not leave him. Now if someone said to him, ‘Go inside your home’, the shadow would finish.

So it is just that the belief has become wrong, and nothing else. The Atma has not bound any karma, and all that is gone on, is just a load of perpetuated inaccuracies. If it did bind karma, then it (the binding of karma) would become its permanent swabhav (nature; tendency), and a permanent swabhav would never leave. These are just misconceptions that have been knocked into people. The Lord said something different and people understood it differently. They cannot understand a single word of what the Lord had said, in these times! They cannot let go of anything, and they are affected with endless worries and external problems (upadhi). The Gnani Purush knows what all this is! Lord Mahavir knew this, but how could He say anything? You cannot speak openly. I may speak freely amongst this small group of people, but I could not be so open in front of five-hundred people. If you told someone,who was bound, ‘you are really free’, what would happen to the poor man? He would not be able to experience it and would only do the wrong things.

Does this bird have to do anything in front of a mirror? The moment the circumstance of a mirror comes before, ‘another bird’ instantly comes in front of it. It will have exactly the same eyes, the beak etc., and whatever the bird on the outside does; the bird inside the mirror does exactly the same. In the same way, the Atma is surrounded by circumstances. Just as the circumstance (saiyog) of the sun casts a shadow, it is because of the circumstances that one sees one’s own true nature (the Self) as being distorted. Only the One who has become free from all these circumstances, can free us, no one else can free us. If the one who he is himself bound, how can he free others?

Where did the Atma come from? It is only in the relative that I have had to say that the Atma is in the path of evolution ( samsaran marg). On the path, it encounters all kinds of circumstances (saiyogo), and it is because of the pressure from these circumstances, that the knowledge has become vibhavik (wrong knowledge, false attribution, ‘I am Chandubhai’). The Atma has done nothing else. Because the knowledge has become vibhavik, whatever intent (bhaav) arose, that is how the body became molded. The Atma did not have to do anything in it. So then, whatever one imagines, one becomes; one becomes whatever one imagines, and there lies the confusion! Then everything pans out as per natural laws; it is now regulated by the laws of vyavasthit. Thereafter the cycle of the battery (the charging of mind, speech and body) from battery, battery from battery, carries on. Only when the Gnani Purush releases you from the battery, can freedom be attained. When he separates the three batteries of the mind, speech and body from you, no more such batteries will be charged, and the old batteries will go on discharging.

That Is Why Gnanis Call It ‘No Beginning, No End’!

These are all circumstances that the Atma has accrued! You are sitting here right now, but if you venture outside and suddenly there is a dense fog, you and I would not be able to see each other face to face. Is that not possible?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Yes, so when the fog appears, you cannot see. That is the same for the Atma which has become shrouded in a fog of circumstances; so many circumstances arise! And like the other fog (atmospheric), this one has infinite kinds of layers (veils of illusion). These veils are so grave, that they do not allow you to attain the awareness of Atma; your Self. The Atma, however, has never come, nor has it ever gone. The Atma itself is Parmatma (Absolute Soul)! But what is incredible, is that it (layers of circumstances) will not allow the awareness to come through. That is what the Gnani has seen. The Gnani who has become free, has seen this.

All these are the questions of the intellect (buddhi). They are all just the intellect’s questions, and it is possible that when the intellect is finished, that this Gnan can come forth. People ask, ‘What is its beginning?’ Hey! Where did you learn the word beginning? That is all an intellectual interference (vikalp). Just to satisfy people’s curiosity, the Gnanis have said that it has no beginning or end ( anaadi anant).

Questioner: I did not understand the meaning of no beginning and no end (anaadi anant).

Dadashri: What is never-ending (anaadi anant)? You will not find the beginning or even the end of something which is round. Would you be able to find the end of this necklace? You would not even be able to find its beginning either, would you? That is why it is called never beginning-never ending (anaadi anant ). Would you not have to explain it to people, in their own language?

But that never happens. Even at this very moment, one is in the state of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), but one is not aware of this. The awareness has been lost because of the pressure of circumstances. If there was a collector here right now, who had lost his awareness, and you ask him, ‘Who are you?’ Since he is not even aware of himself, what answer will he give you? Do living people often not lose their consciousness? In the same way, they have completely lost this awareness. People have become affected more and more by whatever they have been told, and that is what they have come to believe!

How Can There Be a Beginning for the Eternal?

Questioner: Who created the Atma?

Dadashri: No one has created it. If it was created, then it would have an end. The Atma is something that is constantly there; it is an eternal element. It has never had a beginning. No one has made it. If it did have a creator, then even the creator would come to an end, as would his creation.

Questioner: Why does a thing like Atma come into existence?

Dadashri: It has not come into existence or anything like that. In this world, there are six eternal elements (tattva), and these elements are constantly undergoing changes. And it is because of these changes that you see all the circumstances (avastha). People consider the circumstance ( avastha) as: ‘This is my natural form (swaroop)’. The circumstances (avastha) are temporary, whereas the elements (tattva) are permanent. Therefore the Self (Atma) does not have to ‘arise’ (come into creation) at all.

Questioner: So only the Atma has to go to moksha, it does not affect the others?

Dadashri: The Atma itself is a state of liberation (moksha swaroop), but it comes under pressure of the other elements. If it is released from those elements, it can attain liberation (moksha). It is itself the state of liberation (moksha swaroop). But through ignorance (agnan), one continues to believe, ‘I am this, I am this,’ and with that, one continues to become trapped in the wrong belief! And through Gnan (knowledge of the Self), one is freed.

The Integrity of Arrangement of the Worldly Life Forms

Questioner: Do new souls keep coming into the world or do their numbers stay the same as they are in the world right now?

Dadashri: Are you asking me, that because there is an increase in the human population, where the new ones have come from?

Questioner: No, not that. As the first ara (era of time cycle), the second ara, the third ara all occur, do they each have the same number of souls as there are right now in the current era, or has there been an increase or a decrease in them?

Dadashri: There is no increase or decrease of a single soul. However many that, attain liberation from here; that many souls come here from other places, into sansar vyavahar (worldly interaction). Vyavahar means that those living entities (jivas) that have an identification (name and form), have entered the worldly life. You would say that this rosebush has entered interaction in the worldly life (vyavahar). And anything that has not yet acquired an identity has not entered worldly interaction (vyavahar) at all. There are infinite living entities like that, which have not come into worldly interaction (vyavahar), so do not even bother to count them. As many that go to moksha from here, that many, from other places come here. So the number of living entities that there are in worldly interaction (vyavahar), remain the same. Nothing ever increases or decreases in that. That is called the worldly life (sansar); no increase and no decrease by one. Did you understand that?

There are infinite living entities (jivas) that have not yet been named, and that is where they all come from. As soon as all those go to final liberation (moksha) from here, the others are immediately admitted over here. All this is a natural law. So however many there are now, remain the same. When you count them, they are always the same in number.

Vyavahar means any name that is given; whether it is named rose, or named potato, or named vayukaya (air-bodied jiva); they have all come into worldly interaction (vyavahar). But all those without a name, have not yet entered worldly interaction!

Questioner: Where are those living entities?

Dadashri: They are somewhere else. That is something very important to understand, and it is very deep. But you do not need to get too involved in all the minute complexity; otherwise you will forgo the Atma. Leave all that to the Gnani Purush! You only have to understand what is factual! If you try and remember all the minute detail, you will forget to do what is fundamentally more important. Try and understand it on your own and you will see it for yourself. If you continue to follow what ‘we’ show you, ‘You’ too will reach that station. ‘You’ will start ‘seeing’ everything on the way. So do not go on asking about that right now. If Bharooch (railway station) has just now arrived and you say, ‘Dada, what does Mumbai’s Marine Drive look like?’, I would say, ‘Why don’t you wait till you get to Bombay and then see for yourself?’ So what happens here is that at Surat station, when a ghaari (sweet pastry, delicacy of Surat) is served, you do not appreciate it, because you are too preoccupied with thoughts about Marine Drive. That is why we tell you to just carry on enjoying your food and drink for the time being! If you cannot see it right now, there is no need to worry about it.

Questioner: So that would mean, the number of souls do not increase or decrease, is that right?

Dadashri: It does not increase or decrease; it is what it is. There is never an increase, or even a decrease. In this world, not just the Atma’s, but even the non-Self’s (anatma’s) single subatomic particle (parmanu) does not increase or decrease. Even amidst all these wars and catastrophes, and so many people dying; not a single subatomic particle decreases and not a single subatomic particle (parmanu) increases. The numbers of souls does not change. The world remains as it is, and nothing can change that.

Questioner: So how do we identify the energy that runs all this?

Dadashri: What runs all this? The energy is like, say five people are harassing you, so which one out of the five would you name, is harassing you?

Questioner: I would say, all five of them.

Dadashri: Yes, the same happens here; you cannot give the name of just one, because they all do it collectively. It is all scientific circumstantial evidence ( vyavasthit shakti). So if they all get together and do it, whose name would you give? Could you name just one? Besides, all of this is mandatory (farajiyat). This is a path of the worldly life (sansar), and the Atma is passing through the path of the worldly life, and this is its effect. There is nothing else, except for this effect.

So the souls do not increase, nor do they decrease. Even the non-Self complex (pudgal) does not increase or decrease. Neither do these inanimate subatomic particles (jada parmanu), decrease or increase. No matter how many you burn or cut down, even then not a single parmanu (subatomic particle) will be gained or lost! Everything will stay the same.

Questioner: So how did the new ones appear? Has not the population of humans increased?

Dadashri: Those that decreased by numbers in the animal life-form, have all come into the human life-form. But they have also come here with a return ticket. They have come with a return ticket from wherever they have come. If we ask, ‘But what will you do, once you are here?’ And they will say, ‘We will enjoy everything that belongs to others; anything that we have no right to. We will have houses built, roads built, bridges built, and after all the hard work, we will die.’ However many there were, are all heading back to where they came from! Those who corrupt things are only gaining marks to return back there. When they earn so many marks, they go back there again.

The Puzzle of the Creation and Dissolution of the World

Questioner: When will God wind up this living world? And when he does, what sort of state will it be in then?

Dadashri: God does not have the power (shakti) to wind up this world. On the contrary, God himself is trapped in this world, and keeps trying to break free! And when the Gnani Purush shows the way, he can get out of it. No one in this world has the energy to wrap up the world.

Therefore God has not created this world. There is no such thing like creator God in this world; this is only scientific circumstantial evidence. And, “the world is the puzzle itself.” It has become itself puzzled. How it has become puzzled, is what ‘we’ (Gnani), having seen it, are telling you. When those elements all come together like this, this (the illusion; the ego) arises from two of the elements. And through Gnan, it can be destroyed.

It is because of ignorance (agnan), that this has come about. Ignorance means vishesh bhaav (‘I am Chandubhai’), and so the worldly life has come about because of this extra intent (vishesh bhaav ). It can be destroyed through Gnan; Knowledge of the Self.

No one has created this world. There is no creator. Who builds all these homes and everything around here? Does Patel make them? Patel just pays money for them. The houses themselves are constructed by the bricklayers, carpenters and blacksmiths. So is God a blacksmith or a mason? He is God. Everything happens, because of His presence. Just as the house gets built in Patel’s presence, the world runs because of the presence of God, and nothing needs to be done!

These subatomic particles (parmanu) possess so many properties (guna), in this non-Self complex (pudgal); in the matter (jada) part of the non-Self (anatma), there are innumerable properties (guna) that the eyes and everything all occur by themselves. Nobody has to do anything. Do you see how bright the eyes of cows, buffaloes, and goats are?! And what are monkeys’ eyes like? That all happens; by itself. The non-Self ( prakruti) happens on its own.

What science is behind all this, ‘we’ (the Gnani Purush) have ‘seen’ it, and ‘known’ it but cannot describe it. It cannot be described in words. It has not been explained in the scriptures. Otherwise the original revelation of this is very different.

So the world will remain like this forever. And if you want to understand it in a scientific way, then come to me. It is not possible to measure this world with your intellect (buddhi), because even from this world, there are souls (jivas) that go to final liberation (moksha), and yet the world will still remain unchanged. There is no one to wind up this world.

God has not created this world. These foreign scientists were saying to me, ‘God is creator. This is what our Christ has

said, so why are you saying no to that?’ So I told them, ‘God is the creator, is correct by the Christian viewpoint, by the Indian viewpoint, by the Muslim viewpoint; not by fact.’

The Parmatma (Absolute Soul) has not created this world at all. This world came into existence by itself, and the puzzle has occurred by itself. And it is through science that the puzzle has come about. The extra – not of the Self – intent (vishesh bhaav) arises when two of the six eternal elements (tattva), come together. When the two elements come together; neither of them relinquish their individual inherent properties (guna ), and an extra property (vishesh gunadharma) is created. They have called it vyatirek guna (when two elements come together, a third new component of completely new property arises). Just as the anger-pride-deceit-greed is not a quality (guna) of the Atma, these are (also) not the qualities of the non-Self (anatma). They are extra properties (vyatirek guna). So it is because these added properties ( guna) have arisen, that the world has come about, that is all, there is no one else in the universe that does anything!

These people also say that God had a desire to create the world! But he that has desires, is considered a beggar. God would not have any kinds of desires. How can there be desire, where there is absolute satisfaction and absolute bliss? Therefore, God never has desires! It is just that people have been so misled into believing that God had a desire and created the world. But it is not like that. This is entirely science (vignan)! And it came about through science; the entire world is itself science (vignan)!

That Creation Is Itself Science

Questioner: The world did not originate through the energy of activity (kriya shakti), but through the energy of desire (ichchha shakti)?

Dadashri: No, it is not even energy of desire (ichchha shakti ). Someone with desire would be considered a beggar. If God had a desire, then they would have called him a beggar.

Questioner: Whoever is the Supreme Lord (purna brahma); it is only through his energy of desire (ichchha shakti). He has not had to do anything himself.

Dadashri: No, not at all, there is not even any such thing as ichchha shakti. If there was such a thing, then he would be considered a beggar. God is desire-free (nirichchhak)! This has all come about only because of science (vignan)!

Questioner: Is it because of the extra intent (vishesh bhaav) that it is called energy of desire (ichchha shakti)?

Dadashri: No, there is a great difference betweenthe two. Vishesha bhaav (extra intent) means that which happens when two eternal elements come together. When the Sun and the ocean come together, evaporation of water happens, but it is not the desire of the Sun or the ocean. Similarly, vyatirek guna –an extra attribute such as anger-pride-deceit-greed arise. They are called extra properties (vishesha guna), and this world has arisen out of it.

The Elements With Form Are Visible in This Universe

These are all six permanent elements. The five elements that there are: earth (pruthvi), fire (tej), air (vayu), water (paani) and space (aakash). Out of these, only the element of space is permanent, while the other four elements are temporary (vinashi). The earth, light, air and water are all temporary (vinashi) things.

Questioner: Did not they all originate from space?

Dadashri: No, no. Nothing in this world has originated from space. It is from the subatomic particle (parmanu) element, which they call anu (atom). The subatomic particle (parmanu) is the only element that has form. And it is from this elemental form that everything has materialized.

These subatomic particles (parmanu) are always there throughout the entire world. And when there is a concentration of them in any particular place, they are called atoms (anu). The subatomic particles are not visible, from any aspect! Only the Keval Gnani (one with Absolute Knowledge) can see them, but no one else can see them!

This is how it is – subatomic particles(parmanu)have form (roopi), and space (aakash) has no form (aroopi). And the four elements of earth-light-air-water all have form (roopi), so form (roop) is created from that which has form (roopi).

It Is the Same, Whenever You Look at It…

Questioner: Can a world that has shape and form (sakaar), be created from something that is formless (nirakar)?

Dadashri: This world that has shape and form (sakaar) has not sprung from something that has no shape or form (nirakar). Having form (sakaar) is something completely different. This shape and form (sakaar) notion is very different from how you understand it; this is not the same shape or form you refer to. These are all phases (paryaya). And all the phases are transient (vinashi), they arise and they come to an end. Then they arise again. And again they end. Whereas things that are permanent always remain forever. The permanent things can never be created, nor can they ever be destroyed. Therefore, the things which are permanent stay forever, but the phases (paryaya) they incite, are always continually arising and ending, and arising. Only the one who is born will die. Therefore, the Atma has nothing to do with it. That is how differently this world runs! So you need not be afraid that, someday the world may fall apart. There is no reason for that. It will stay exactly as it is. The sun, the moon and the stars will always appear the same, whenever you take birth.

Questioner: There are many people who interpret it as, ‘it was God’s wish’. But actually He was in a state of non-dualism (adwaita), He felt lonely, and so he made the decision to enter into duality (dwaita) and that resulted in the creation of the world.

Dadashri: If he makes decisions (sankalp), then he is not God.

Questioner: No, not decision. But the dualistic intent (dwaita bhaav) occurred.

Dadashri: No, God cannot have dualistic intent (dwaita bhaav), nor can He have non-dualistic intent (adwaita bhaav). Dualism (dwaita) and non-dualism (adwaita), are dualities (dwandva), and God is above duality (dwandvatita); He transcends duality.

Questioner: But is it not because there is duality (dwandva) that there is creation of the worldly life (srushti)?

Dadashri: Yes, duality (dwandva) is creation (srushti) itself. Creation (srushti) is duality itself. And when you rise above duality ( dwandvatita), your work is done.

From the State of No Beginning With an End to a Beginning of Eternity

This is how it is: there is no such thing as the beginning of the world, and neither is there such a thing as an end. People only go on asking, ‘When did it begin?’ with their intellect (buddhi). It is because they believe that since they themselves had a beginning, so too must the world.

There is no such word as beginning (aadi), as in the beginning of the world and neither does the word end (anta) exist. The flow of worldly life (sansar) has been in existence forever (anaadi), and yet it does have an end (anta). And they ask, ‘From which perspective does it have an end?’ The answer would be: All the living beings (jiva) are drifting along in the stream of worldly life (sansar), in a state of illusion (bhranti); however, if they were to encounter a Gnani Purush, at that point in time, their illusion comes to an end.

So the illusion (bhranti) that has carried on forever comes to an end, and gives rise to the right vision (samyaktva). Sa-aadi means the onset of Sa (samyaktva – right vision). How long will the right vision (samyaktva) last? It will not come to an end, until Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan) is attained. That sa-aadi (beginning of right vision) is considered sa-anta (the end of the right vision). The beginning of right vision (sa-aadi) and the end of right vision (sa-anta) the beginning and end of samyaktva (right vision)! While in moksha, there will be a beginning of right vision (sa-aadi), which will remain throughout infinity (anant). And that is why it is called saadi-anant. So the first part is of anaadi-saant, the second is of saadi-saant and the last part is of saadi-anant!

Therefore there is no such thing as a beginning (aadi) in this world, and there is also no such thing as an end (anta). There will be no end if you were to wonder or imagine about it.

Changing of Circumstances Is the Nature of the World

Questioner: But even so, what would be the instrumental cause (naimitik karan) behind the origin (utpatti), existence (sthiti) and extinction ( laya) of the world?

Dadashri: But what are you calling origin?

Questioner: We know that it is because of the continual change in the pudgal (body) that the world is there. But at whichever time the world originated, that beginning (utpatti) is followed by a steady state (sthiti) which then comes to an end (laya). So what is the instrumental cause ( naimitik karan) behind this?

Dadashri: But where did you see the world originating?

Questioner: I have not seen it, but nevertheless, does it not go through change?

Dadashri: Change itself means, that it originates, stays still, and goes through destruction. That is precisely what change means! So in its elemental form ( vastu swaroop), this world does not have any origin, nor does it get destroyed; nothing happens at all. Changes only occur in the condition or state (avastha) of things!

Questioner: Is the energy (shakti) of the Atma also an instrumental cause (naimitik karan)?

Dadashri: It has nothing to do with it. Why would the Atma have anything to do with that? Do these pharmacists not write down the date the medicine bottle was sealed, say in 1977, and it also tells you that if you have not used it by 1979, that you should discard the contents?

Questioner: Because it has lost its efficacy.

Dadashri: Why would you need the Atma in that? That is how it all is. Time (kaad) is something that devours everything. Time ages everything, but it also renews things.

Change incorporates everything. What is roopantar (change in form)? It means to come into existence, to exist for a while and then to disappear.

Questioner: I still do not understand one thing. The origin of the world is said to be since time immemorial, but should not there be a reason for the origin?

Dadashri: The main reason behind it is this puzzle.

Questioner: But should not there be some kind of energy (shakti) to solve the puzzle?

Dadashri: No, there is no need for energy (shakti) in this. Once you know this science, the puzzle will be solved.

The entire world is made up of six eternal elements (tattva). Tattva means that they are eternal, and those eternal elements perpetually maintain their own nature (swabhav). But these elements (tattva) interact around each other, which is why we see all this varied display.

Questioner: What are these six eternal elements (tattva)?

Dadashri: One is chetan (the Self). The second is jada (matter; non-Self), which has form (roopi). The chetan tattva is invisible (aroopi). The third is one that gives motion to jada (matter) and chetan (Self), and it is called the element of motion or momentum (gatisahayak tattva). Now if only the motion element were there, everything would be in constant motion! So to make jada and chetan still, there is the element of inertia or immobility (sthitisahayak tattva), which keeps a body at rest! That makes four of the elements (tattva); the fifth is space (aakash), and the sixth is the element of time (kaad)! It is because of these six elements that the world has arisen. All the six elements are eternal.

Nature’s Mysterious Planning

This world runs naturally. Everything is in its own natural state (swabhav), and nothing has ever left its own nature. Only, the worldly interaction (vyavahar) which is the entire path of evolution (samsaran marg), and it is in this path of evolution, that all these life-forms (jiva ) have entered. So three divisions have been made: first the life-form (jiva) that has no identity (avyavahar rashi); it is awaiting entry into the worldly life; second, the life-form that has identity (vyavahar rashi) and enters the worldly life; and the third is the ultimate liberation of the Atma in Siddha kshetra (realm of all Liberated Souls).

The life-forms (jiva) that exist without identity (avyavahar rashi ) are infinite in number, and even the life-forms that have entered worldly interaction (vyavahar) are infinite. However, if you wanted to count the number of human beings that are in worldly interaction, then it is possible. And those who have been liberated from the worldly interaction ( vyavahar); who have gone on to the location of ultimate liberation (Siddha gati), are also infinite in number!

The living entities (jiva) that have no identity (avyavahar rashi) come over here into worldly interaction (vyavahar). Just believe that, fifty-thousand living entities (jiva) go to final liberation (moksha), and fifty-thousand living entities come from the unidentified state (avyavahar rashi) and make entry into worldly interaction (vyavahar), which is why the worldly interaction stays the same all the time.

What is considered worldly interaction (vyavahar)? Those life-forms (jivas), that have been gradually evolving in the path of evolution ( samsaran marg), who have been given a name; that is, that they can be identified by a name; means that they have now entered into the interaction of the world (vyavahar). So you could say, ‘Man, this is an onion, this is a rose, this is a grain of rice, this is algae.’ So all the way to final liberation (moksha), the circumstances and state (avastha) are constantly changing, and the life-form is gradually developing further and further, from a single-sensed organism (ekendriya), all the way until it develops five senses (panchindriya).

After attaining five senses (panchindriya), the life-form becomes human in foreign countries, where it develops further and further along in the human form, before it takes birth in Hindustan (India). Those living beings (jiva) that come to enter Hindustan, have the highest spiritual development, which gives them a greater right to final liberation (moksha). Those in foreign lands are not yet entitled to moksha, as they are still in the stages of development! He that has developed fully, then goes to final liberation from here!

As many living beings that go to final liberation (moksha); that go to the location of final liberation (Siddha gati), the same number of living beings enter worldly interaction (vyavahar), from the non-interactive form (avyavahar). So, what would you call worldly interaction ( vyavahar)? It is, that in worldly interaction, not a single life-form, ever decreases, or increases – that is called vyavahar! If a single living entity were to increase or decrease; the entire order (or arrangement) would collapse.

Questioner: What would happen if one single living entity (jiva) decreased, or one single living entity increased?

Dadashri: Nature’s entire planning would break down! If the sun does not appear today, then the moon will not appear tomorrow or else so many stars would be missing, or perhaps a certain planet will not be there. So they will say, ‘They have all gone to final liberation (moksha)’, while here there would be a pitch darkness! But all this, the entire design, is all going to stay the same.

The sun-moon-stars, even after billions of years will still appear the same. You would see the very same planet of Saturn, and the same planet of Venus, but the living entities (jiva) within will always be changing. The external packing stay the same, they will still be reflecting; whereas the living entity within falls and moves to another location. Even the sun will fall, as too will other living entities.

But no sooner does it fall and disappear, another living being (jiva) takes its place. And that is called vyavasthit (scientific circumstantialevidence). What a beautiful arrangement it is! If one living being (jiva) arrives at 3:03, the other one leaves at that precise moment. Otherwise we would be able to tell, ‘why did it become dark?’ But nothing like that happens. Therefore, not a single jiva is misplaced, and each and every jiva, remains in its own service (to serve its existence)!

However many souls (jiva) that go to final liberation (moksha) from here, that many souls come from the unnamed state (avyavahar rashi) and enter worldly interaction (vyavahar). There is no increase or decrease in worldly interaction. The worldly interactionremains thesame and as it is. So there is no need to worry that certain particular types of fruit may become extinct. When some types of fruit disappear, another type will come along, but that the worldly interaction (vyavahar) will remain all the way!

Questioner: They say that the Atma comes from the lowest life-form (nigod). That first all the atmas are in a state of dormancy awaiting development (nigod), so what is nigod?

Dadashri: Nigod means that in one body there are innumerable living entities (jivas). Like in a single potato, there are so many of them, are there not? In the same way, in nigod there is an excessive number of living entities. Those living entities have not yet been given a name. The potato has been given a name.

Questioner: So does the beginning commence from the time the living entity (jiva) has been given a name?

Dadashri: No, the beginning starts even before that. That is called an unnamed state (avyavahar rashi), meaning these living entities have not yet entered into the interactive worldly state (vyavahar).

Questioner: Where is the location of the souls of nigod?

Dadashri: This is the entire location! It is everywhere in space. The entire space in this universe is filled with nigod (infinitesimal, imperceptible dormant living entities, awaking and entering the path of evolution)!

Questioner: Is there not a beginning for living entities in the unnamed state (avyavahar rashi), as well?

Dadashri: No. There is no origin (utpatti) over there.

There are infinite living entities (jivas) there. So no matter how many living entities decrease from the infinite number, its infinity never goes. It is not worth gauging with your intellect (buddhi), because where this is concerned, the intellect will not reach there. Nothing can ever diminish from infinity. No matter how much you take out of infinity, it still stays as infinity, and that is what you would call infinite. So there is never a loss over there! Even in the location of ultimate liberation (Siddha gati) there is infinity, so that even when innumerable amounts increase over there, they still remain infinitely infinite.

Humans are the only beings in the universe that are sankhyat (can be counted; enumerable). All other life-forms are asankhyat (cannot be counted; innumerable). Enumerable (sankhyat) means that they decrease and increase, and there are certain laws that govern this fluctuation (increase and decrease). The fluctuation is its normality. When there is an increase in a certain number, the population increases to a certain degree, and again, when there is a decline in numbers, the population decreases up to a certain degree; that is its normality (norm).

Now when it is time for it to start decreasing, the part which is infinite (anant) will decrease first, then the part which is innumerable (asankhyat) will decrease, then the part which is enumerable (sankhyat) will decrease, and then the enumerable properties (sankhyatguna) will decrease. Then the innumerable properties (asankhyat guna) will decrease, and then the infinite properties (anant guna) will decrease, and then it will become increasing (vardhaman) once again. And after increasing, it decreases (heeyamaan).

Questioner: What does numerable (sankhyat)and innumerable (asankhyat) mean?

Dadashri: Sankhyat (numerable) means that it is something which you can count. The human population is numerable (sankhyat) and the animals and plants (tiryancha); lower life-form population is innumerable (asankhyat). Asankhyat (innumerable) means that it cannot be counted; you will run out of numbers. Even when they count over a billion, they can go on counting, but it will never end. That is called innumerable (asankhyat); it will not end even when you run out of numbers.

Human beings alone are numerable (sankhyat); you could count perhaps four or five billion, and that would be a good estimate. However, the animals and plants (tiryancha), are innumerable (asankhyat), and even the celestial beings (deva) are innumerable. The living beings in the infernal realm (nark gati) are innumerable; with the exception of human beings, all other living beings (jivas)in the worldly interaction (vyavahar) are innumerable (asankhyat).

The living entities of the unnamed state (avyavahar rashi) are infinite (anant), and even in the realm of Liberated Souls (Siddha gati ) there are infinite liberated Souls (Siddhas). Infinite (anant), means beyond innumerable (asankhyat), limitless, never-ending; so it would be futile to count them. You can try and count the numerable (sankhyat), but what do you do, when the innumerable (asankhyat), has no number (sankhya)? Ten million, a hundred million, a billion…, however much further you go on counting, this account (hisaab) will still not come to an end. That is why it has been categorized as innumerable (asankhyat); because it does notcome intocounting( sankhya)– it cannot be allocated a number!

This world has puzzled itself. Why is that? It is because these jivas (living beings) are forever moving in the flowing current of an eternal ( anaadi) stream. Just like the flowing waters of the Narmada (river), these living entities (jivas) are constantly flowing along.

Matter (dravya), location (kshetra), time (kaad) and inner intent (bhaav) are constantly changing. Even their location keeps changing. So if in the past life, we were at the tenth milestone, in this lifetime, we come to the eleventh milestone. Now on the tenth milestone, there were wonderful gardens and wonderful people, and having seen all that, when we get to the eleventh milestone, we encounter desert. So you think to yourself, ‘How on earth can I live like this?’ You recall all that you had seen at the tenth milestone. You are in a predicament because of your internal conflict. All you keep feeling is, ‘this is terrible, this is terrible’. The knowledge of today is what is bothering you within. Is that not where all the conflict stems from? Until you attain Atmagnan (Self-realization), the conflict will continually go on and on.

So the world will remain the way it is forever. And from it, as a rule, the living beings will constantly be going to final liberation (moksha).

Ultimately the Solution Will Come Through the Gnani

Questioner: Once a living entity (jiva) comes into a state where it has an identity (vyavahar rashi) and enters life in the world, is it bound to go to final liberation (moksha)? So even the time would have been decided, that after so many births, it will go to final liberation? Would the timing of going to final liberation be already determined?

Dadashri: The living entity (jiva) is ready to go to final liberation (moksha) from the time it enters into the named state (vyavahar rashi).

Questioner: But will its time be decided?

Dadashri: The time is indeed decided, but after coming into the human life-form, provided one does not do egoism (ahamkar), then the time is definite. If he does egoism, he again falls from there, and then there is no telling what happens from there on. Once he turns backward into egoism (ahamkar), there is no certainty; then it will roam around for countless lifetimes. So as long as he does not do egoism, the time is secured.

If one lives in the same manner as the animals, living the way the animals do with others; without the hassle of pride (maan), the hassle of ego ( ahamkar), without the hassle of greed (lobh), he would go directly to final liberation (moksha). But these people do not live the same way as animals!

Questioner: After becoming human, how can one live like animals?

Dadashri: What I am saying, is that if a being (jiva), lives the way animals do, then it can go off to moksha. But by watching others one becomes just like them. ‘They did this and I am like this’, perpetually doing this, everything goes wrong. Then if he finds spiritual company (satsang), and meets a Gnani Purush, only then there is freedom; otherwise, there is no freedom.

Questioner: Is it decided that one will meet a Gnani Purush only at a certain time?

Dadashri: No. That is not decided. It depends on when one encounters that circumstance. If anyone should receive such a push, he would become egotistical ( ahamkari)! When he becomes egotistical (ahamkari), it means he becomes independent (nirashrit). Except for human beings, all other living beings (jivas) are dependent (aashrit) on God. But these humans are the only ones who are independent (nirashrit)!

So this is all man’s ego; ‘I will do this’ and ‘I will do that’! Moreover, he has heaps and heaps of all kinds of desires; ‘I want to do this!’ So human beings become independent and then they claim, ‘I can do this’. So God says, ‘Fine then, go do your thing!’ It means that God has become free from any responsibility.

What does the doctor say? He would say, ‘I am doing the treatment. I cured him this way, and I did that…’ Then would God not move away from there?

Therefore, the whole problem is to do with knowledge arising from association with worldly people (loksangnya). People have learned from what they saw, and we learned from what people learned. With a worldly view (loksangnya) you can never go to final liberation (moksha). Do you understand loksangnya? If you follow the ways of others’ beliefs, about where happiness (sukh) lies, you will never attain final liberation. Only if one follows the Gnani’s sangnya (association), will he find a solution.

Questioner: But the moment you are born, all you find is worldly influence (loksangnya) and nothing else.

Dadashri: Yes, but what can you do? Since you are living with others, it has to be that way.

Otherwise if a person is natural and spontaneous (sahajik), he will go straight to moksha. Just look at how natural (sahajik) animals are. They have no anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh). Even when an animal butts you with its head, it has no anger (krodh); it is natural and spontaneous (sahajik). And when it devours its food quickly, it has no avarice (lobh), because that is natural to them.

Moksha Is Certain: the Time for Moksha Is Not

Questioner: So are we to understand, that for every Atma, the time to go to its final liberation has been decided; whereas for some it is not?

Dadashri: Each Atma is going to go to its final liberation (moksha); that much is true. But its time to go to final liberation is not decided. That is dependent upon what one does in human birth. It depends upon whether as a human being, he creates entanglements, reduces entanglements or whether he stops them altogether.

Questioner: Does every Atma attain the human life at the same time? Does it attain it at a designated time?

Dadashri: Every Atma has to receive a human life.

Questioner: But does it receive it at a time that is predetermined?

Dadashri: Yes, it receives it at a decided time; the beginning of the time of the human life (avatar) is determined. Once it attains the human life, it is then free to roam around independently! That is because whether to create entanglements or not, is now in its hands. After that, nothing is for certain. But the road until there, is definitely there, and it is clear-cut. It is absolutely regular for a living being (jiva) to receive an initial human birth (avatar) and it happens precisely on time. But later, it encounters the entanglements! And when it becomes embroiled in it, it becomes so embroiled, that you would not believe. So many lifetimes are lost in this! This is because in the human birth, doership (kartapanu) arises in the living being, and in doership (kartapanu) there is all kinds of freedom; freedom to go into any life-form. The living being can do the things that would send it to the infernal realm (nark gati), or it can do things that will send it to the animal realm (jaanvar gati); it can even perform gracious deeds and superhuman feats in the human form; do deeds that would return it to the human life-form, or even deeds for it to enter the realm of celestial beings (deva gati)!

And if ever the soul (jiva) encounters a Gnani Purush, or a vitarag (who is absolutely free from attachment and abhorrence), it no longer does deeds that are related to the worldly life (sansar), and starts on the vitarag path; its deeds (karya) become related to the Atma; therefore, it goes on to liberation. So even liberation happens only in the human life-form. Nowhere else, not even in the celestial realm (deva gati), can you attain liberation. In other realms of existence (gatis), there is no doership (karta); whereas in the human life-form, there is doership.

Bringing an End to the Ego, The Vitarag Way

Questioner: So when the Atma enters the human life-form for the very first time, it needs to be very alert at the time.

Dadashri: But to stay alert, that power is not in its hands. It encounters all the circumstances (saiyogo), and according to the circumstance, it then becomes entangled itself. Everyone has the same entanglements. But, if a person were to know his own ego (ahamkar), himself, and still he did nothing to reduce it, then you should know that he is deliberately trying to become entangled.

Questioner: I used to think that every Atma does not have the same scope, so that one Atma would go to final liberation (moksha) quickly, while another would go to final liberation much later. So then, does it all depend on luck?

Dadashri: No. That is not luck. When one takes birth in the human form; it happens due to circumstances. When it takes birth for the first time, here in the human form, that birth will be one that, nothing will hurt it on its way to final liberation.But that all depends upon, in which way it turns the ego(ahamkar).

If one takes birth in a family of thieves, and if he does not turn the ego around himself, then nothing is accomplished. That is because being born human, gives one the right! So he has become the doer (karta) of ego (ahamkar). But, if he does not turn the ego around on his own, then there is nothing. Birth can take place anywhere, and under any circumstance, but in which direction do we guide the ego (ahamkar); just as a ship would use a compass to navigate with, even in this, you need to employ a compass. This means that the way to keep the ego would be to say, ‘I have to run this now, so I must be careful. I have to take this direction very slowly’. From the time of birth into the human life-form, you yourself have to steer the ego. Once human birth is attained, this is how you have to guide the ego.

Questioner: And that is not easy.

Dadashri: If it was easy then everyone would have done it. It is itself difficult, it is not easy. It is extremely difficult. Because it is so difficult, just to understand this much, so many scriptures have been written. But that in itself is very difficult.

There are certain things that you like and sometimes things you do not. ‘One’ (the Self) comes across agreeable circumstances, and disagreeable circumstances. When a likeable circumstance (saiyog) comes along, the Vitarag says: that nothing is worth liking, nor is it worth disliking, You (the Self) should remain free from this. That is because there is no such thing to not like. Besides, You bind yourself when you consider something to be good. When you call something good, you will be calling something else bad. Since you say one thing is good, you will undoubtedly say the other thing is bad.

So what does the Vitarag (one without attachment and abhorrence) say? That it is all circumstances (saiyogo). And that it is you, who have created the differences; that this circumstance (saiyog) is good, and that circumstance is bad. All that the Vitarags have said about circumstances is that they are all circumstances. And moreover, that the nature of these circumstances is that they dissipate (viyogi); therefore, do not allow any circumstance to become likable to you, so that you do not have to push away any circumstance that you may not like. If you try to push it away, then you forgo your final liberation (moksha). If any disagreeable circumstance (saiyog) should come along, and you push that circumstance away, you will again get caught up in the entanglement. Therefore, instead of pushing the circumstance away, end it with intent of equanimity (samata bhaav). Circumstances by their own nature, are transient (viyogi). The circumstance will disperse on its own, so you do not have to become fretful. And in spite of that, if you are confronted with circumstances you dislike, and you try to avoid them by going the wrong way, even then, time will not spare you; for that length of time, you will have to suffer a beating. Therefore, the circumstance is by nature, transient (viyogi); with this support, and with patience, you must move on.

Did Gajasukumar not, have his head covered with a clay turban (pot), by his father-in-law? He had filled the pot with burning coal. At that moment, Gajasukumar understood that he was encountering this saiyog (circumstance), in which his father-in-law had bound – what was according to his belief – a turban for moksha, filled with burning coal, over his head.

Now, Lord Neminath (The 22nd Tirthankar), had told Gajasukumar, ‘This is Your nature and form (swaroop), and these circumstances ( saiyogo), are not Yours. ‘You’ are the Knower (Gnata) of the circumstances. Circumstances are all something to be known (gneya).’ So he was, as the Self, able to remain the Knower, amidst those circumstances (gneya). Since he had become the Knower, he remained separate in that circumstance and he even attained final liberation. Otherwise, in spite of all their lamentations and grief (kalpant), people die anyway! If you are about to die, and you die lamenting, you will have to suffer the consequences of that lamentation (kalpant – endless grief).

Regularity After Self-Realization

Questioner: Can we not say that religion (dharma) is the same as a child learning his numbers, beginning with number one, and progresses step by step in order ( kramsar)?

Dadashri: It is all just like that in religion (dharma). But as far as dharma goes, it all changes after one enters the human life. It all becomes distorted. Here from human life one either goes on to a lower life-form, or a higher life-form.

Questioner: So, after coming into the human life, there is no more order (kram)?

Dadashri: No. But after Atmagnan (Self-realization) it returns to order (kram) again. So after Self-realization, it becomes orderly (kramvaar) again. As long as you have human birth, if you do not attain Self-realization, you will be wandering around, and all rule or order (kram-bram) will just disappear. However, if this were not to occur in the middle of human life, then God would say that everything is dependent upon niyati, a fixed precise track towards liberation.

It Is One’s Nature to Ascend Higher, but When?

Questioner: The fundamental nature of the Atma is to rise upwards (urdhvagami). They say that we have received this human body, on account of this nature. Now, the results of some of the karmas done in the human life, sends one to the plant and animal realm of existence (Tiryancha gati). And after having spent time in the Tiryancha gati, one returns to the human body, so what is the law that governs this?

Dadashri: The fact is, that when one binds karma here, it means that the paudgalik (pertaining to the non-Self complex) weight increases, and when the weight of the pudgal (the non-Self complex) increases, it descends to lower realms of existence (gati). Then, when the pudgal becomes expended in the lower life-form, it means that the load of the non-Self complex has lessened, and so he comes back to human life!

Once he is back as a human being, if his human intent of human life (dharma) breaks, and the intent of celestial life (deva dharma) arises in him, he becomes lighter and ascends to the celestial realm (deva gati). When the load increases, one descends, to where there are seven abysses; seven lower regions (lokas) into which he sinks. And if one becomes lighter, one ascends upwards, all the way to where there are six locations (lokas). That is how the universe comprises the fourteen locations!

Thenon-Self complex (pudgal) is darkness, and the Atma

is light. If you are pulled into darkness, you will go downwards, and if you are pulled into the light, you will go upwards.

Downwards Because of the Ego

Questioner: But is the nature of the Atma, not natural and spontaneous (sahaj)? So why do we have to do sadhana (spiritual endeavor) for spiritual bliss (shreya)?

Dadashri: The Atma has no spiritual happiness (shreya), nor does it have worldly happiness (preya). The Atma’s innate nature ( swabhav) is to ascend (urdhvagami). The Atma is in a constant state of ascending. The nature of the non-Self complex (pudgal), on the other hand, is to descend (adhogami).

Questioner: So define urdhvagami.

Dadashri: Urdhvagami means that one’s nature alone will carry him to moksha. As long as you do not interfere, the Atma, through its own nature (swabhav), is capable of going to moksha by itself, and you would not have to do a single thing! And the non-Self complex (pudgal), by its very nature is falling (adhogami). The more strength the non-Self complex gains, the lower it gets pushed, and the lesser its strength becomes, it rises; however, when the Atma is free of the non-Self complex altogether, is when it ascends to final liberation (moksha).

Questioner: But the Atma’s nature is to rise (urdhvagami), so why does it descend lower again (adhogami)?

Dadashri: If one has any harmful thoughts towards any human being or any other soul (jiva), or has thoughts about hurting anyone in anyway, then heavy subatomic particles (parmanu) will have attached themselves, which means that it becomes heavier and he will be pulled downwards. But if you have altruistic thoughts about doing good for the world, then lighter subatomic particles will stick to it, which will take you higher up.

Questioner: But is it not said that the Atma is constantly heading towards moksha?

Dadashri: Absolutely. It is indeed going upwards, but when it gathers heavy subatomic particles (parmanu), it will start going downwards. Its own nature is to rise (urdhvagami), but it is the non-Self complex (pudgal), that pulls it down. And so this tug of war has started. It is for this reason that I tell you; become free from karma! That is why, when you attain the state of Shuddhatma (the pure Soul), the pull from the non-Self complex (pudgal) will lessen. Otherwise, until then; time, karma, illusory attachment (maya), will all hinder you. Therefore, when the entire matter (prasang – added association) of the non-Self complex is settled, the Atma, while remaining in its own nature, will then go off to final liberation.

Now, the nature of the non-Self complex (pudgal) is to descend (adhogami). But how does the non-Self complex’s nature become even more descending? The answer would be that, it is not based on one’s body (sharira) being too fat, nor is it based on one’s body being too heavy, but it depends on how big, how long, and how wide, one’s ego (ahamkar) is. A person’s body may be skinny, but his ego could be as huge as the universe; whereas, someone who has a strong body and weighs two-hundred and fifty kilos, but has no ego; will not sink. Ahamkar (ego) means weight.The very meaning of ego, is weight.

Therefore, this world is boundless, but it exists within prescribed laws. That is because the nature of the Atma is to rise upwards; its nature is to ascend towards Siddha gati (location of Liberated Souls).

From Human to Lower Life-Form

Questioner: How can one reconcile the concept of evolution in the Theory of Evolution, in terms of worldly science,with the notion of the world’s existence as being eternal? Would you please explain this?

Dadashri: This world is without a beginning and without an end (anaadi-anant). The living entities (jivas) within it are constantly evolving. The living entities have been divided into three parts. Out of the three, there is one part, where absolutely no evolution occurs. Those living entities are just stored in a stockpile. They are called avyavahar rashi (without identity). They come here from that stock, into worldly interaction ( vyavahar), where the living entities (jivas) in worldly interaction are continually evolving. The souls (jivas) carry on evolving all the way to final liberation (moksha). While they are evolving, they acquire all kinds of experiences and proceed to moksha.

There were four senses (indriya) initially, and the last to come are the ears. The very last to develop is ear. The jivas development prior to this, would be just holes where the ears would be; otherwise there would only be four senses.

The fourth sense (indriya) are, the eyes, so it becomes a winged insect, like a moth. As soon as its eyes open, it has an illusory attachment ( moha) to light. So it dies from chasing the light. When the ear opens up, it dies from hearing. All day long, it searches for things to listen to, so it listens to the radio, or it goes to listen to songs. It is always like this for anything that has newly opened up.

As for these ants, because of their newly developed sense (sense of smell), they scurry around here and there. And if there is a pot suspended three feet from the ceiling, they would sense through the nose, from here on the ground, that there is ghee (clarified butter) in it. Now they know how to get to it. So they climb up the wall, then climb down and lick the ghee. They run around all day due to this newly developed sense they are born with.

When they talk about there being 8,400,000 yoni (places of inception; birth), it means total sum of all the yonis of the different types of life-forms (jivas). If it had to go through all the 8,400,000 again, you would never see it again! How would you? However, it is not like that. It only has to wander around over here. If the living entity goes from human life into animal life, it stays there for eight lives (lifetimes), before returning to human life again.

Questioner: But according to the theory of evolution (utkranti), it cannot go from being a human, to the lower life-form, can it?

Dadashri: This is how it is: it is only in the human realm (gati), where both charging and discharging occur; whereas the celestial realm (deva gati) is in the form (swaroop) of discharge; the plant and animal realm (tiryancha gati), is in the form of discharge, and the infernal realm or Hell (nark gati) is in the form of discharge. Therefore, those who have gone to animal life-form, celestial life-form, or infernal life-form, they have only gone there from the human life-form. Darwin’s theory is not entirely wrong. It is ten or fifteen percent correct. But there are three hundred and sixty degrees to complete knowledge! He did not have complete knowledge of this. He discovered it through his intellect ( buddhi), which is fine and correct. But he did not know, that afterwards, the entire path takes on a curve, where humans can even devolve into cows and buffaloes, whose realm (gati) is not one of development. For they only come from the human life-form.

And so the theory of evolution is only right, up to about ten percent. The other ninety percent, he did not know about. After all, his ten percent discovery is only up until the humanrealm(gati)! He did not know about the devolution (vakragati) that occurs for the human being; how did the human end up as an elephant? How did the bull appear? How did the horse appear? How did fish appear? How did the whale appear? That is what they do not understand. However, today his theory of evolution, the theory according to Darwin, is right. But it is ten percent true. There is much more to come further on. How does a whale come into existence? What rule of evolution applies there? That is devolution (vakragati), whereby it has reverted back from human life. Where did the rhino come from? It too has come back from the human life. Where have the lions and the tigers returned from? They have turned back from the human life-form.

So lions and tigers, and even their cubs, begin to eat flesh from the time they are cubs, do they not? And what about the calves of the cows and the buffaloes? Even while they grow, they do not eat flesh. Why is that? The reason would be, that these are “vegetarian” (herbivores), while the rest are “non-vegetarian” (carnivores). You can apply the same notion here, and appreciate that it was the humans who were vegetarians themselves, that are now here in the form of cows and buffaloes. You can appreciate all that.

Questioner: After human birth, do they ever go into earth-bodied life-forms (pruthvikaya) or fire-bodied life-forms (teukaya)?

Dadashri: They do not go into the earth-bodied or the fire-bodied life-forms. At most, they can go to immoveable bodies (sthavarkaya); into trees. From the human life, they can go to plant and animal (tiryancha) for a maximum of eight lifetimes.

Therefore, the whole of the celestial realm (deva gati), the entire infernal realm (nark gati), and some part of the animal and plant realm ( tiryancha gati) have all come from the human being (manushya). Humans do both, they charge and discharge (karmas) and they can also, remain beyond charging and discharging. So humans do have the energy to go to moksha!

If human virtue is not lost; the human form is not lost. And if one has bestial thoughts all the time, they will take him to into plant and animal life ( tiryancha). There is a limit to suffering. If something belongs to you, then you can enjoy it, but if it does not belong to you, then do not even think about it. The fact that one enjoys things that he does not rightfully own, is precisely what transports him to the plant and animal life-form ( tiryancha); therefore it is our ownthoughts that send us to otherrealms of existence (gati).

There are some sthavar (immobile), fruit-bearing trees, which humans who have carried out deceit and such immorality, enter into and become coconut trees, mango and other fruit trees. Their entire lifetime is spent on giving fruit to others, so that they can pay off their karmic accounts and become free from their ties to people. No matter how enticing its mangoes are, it would not be able to enjoy its own wonderful fruit, will it? So by providing such mangoes to others, it becomes free from the karma. Which is why all this is scientific and no one can do anything in that.

Thereafter It Goes to Moksha

Questioner: In the Theory of Evolution, a living entity (jiva) evolves into a single-sensed (ekendriya), a two-sensed (beindriya) organism, and develops all the way into a human being. And then from human, it can return to animal, so there seems to be a bit of a contradiction to the evolution theory. Can you clarify this?

Dadashri: No. There is no contradiction. The entire Theory of Evolution is fine. However, it is only correct up to the point of human beings, but they do not know anything beyond that.

Questioner: Does the human being really return to animal life-form? That is my question.

Dadashri: This is how it is: first, according to Darwin’s theory, by the process of evolution, the living entity (jiva) develops more and more, until it reaches human life, and once it becomes a human being, because of the ego (“egoism”), it becomes a doer (karta). And when it becomes the doer of karma, then according to the karmas it has to go and endure them. If it creates a debit (paap; demerit karma), it has to go to the animal realm, or even to Hell (nark gati). And if it creates credit (punya; merit karma), it has to go to celestial realm ( deva gati) or live a royal, and noble life as a human being. So it all depends on the credit and debit after it has entered the human realm.

So are there not people here who create credit-debit? These days, they do more debit, do they not? They have no idea where they are heading, and even then, do they not go on creating debit? So from two legs, they receive four legs and a tail! They again have to return here to the human realm; but they do not have to go any lower. If they attain the human form once, they have to endure a period of one or two hundred years, before returning to the human realm again. Then they do not leave this human place. They retain their human form, all the way until final liberation (moksha). If there is a debit, they end up spending one or two hundred years in the animal realm, and a hundred thousand years in the infernal realm. And if there is a credit, they spend a hundred thousand years in the celestial realm. But when the embodied soul’s (jiva’s) suffering ends over there, it is back here again. And when it is ready for final liberation (moksha), it will then go to final liberation, but until then it will have to keep wandering around.

Questioner: When it enters the human life-form, its mind is also developed, so does it mean that when it returns to the animal life-form, that being loses the developed mind again?

Dadashri: No. But the mind becomes covered by a veil (of ignorance). The embodied soul (jiva) does have a mind in the animal realm, but its mind is limited, its food will be corresponding to that; its blood and everything else will be animal-like. But it has to go to that location in order to suffer everything. If it were not like that, then people would not work for a living, but instead just steal and eat! But in the next life (birth), one immediately reaps the fruit of all this.

Now here, one eats what is not rightfully his to eat. Adulterates goods and then sells them; enjoys things that are not rightfully his. That is all bestial thinking, which is preparing him for life in the animal realm. You should realize that such thoughts only leads one to the animal realm; while virtuous thoughts (thoughts of sajjanta), will return him back to human life. And if one gives to others, that which rightfully belongs to him, and has magnanimous superhuman thoughts; then he will go to the celestial realm of existence (deva gati).

Questioner: In the animal yoni (birth), does one have good and bad thoughts?

Dadashri: No. There are no thoughts or anything of the kind over there. The animal birth is a birth which is only meant to suffer effects (discharge) of karma . The celestial realm too, is only one that has to be suffered, as is the infernal realm. Only humans bind karma and suffer them as well, at the same time.

Questioner: What if the credit and the debit, both stop?

Dadashri: If credit and debit, merit karma (punya) and demerit karma (paap) both come to an end, then one goes to moksha.

To Wander from Realm to Realm Is Nature’s Law

Questioner: But they say that one only attains human birth after he wanders around for 8,400,000 lifetimes, so does it mean that he has to wander around for that many times again, before he receives another human birth?

Dadashri: No, it is not like that. Once you attain a human birth, you do not have to go through the cycle of 8,400,000 births again. However, if one’s thoughts are bestial, then he will have to go take birth in the animal place of creation (yoni) for eight lifetimes, and even they will last one or two hundred years. One only returns back here again after that time. After becoming human just once, one does not have to wander around too much.

Questioner: Is it the same Atma, that goes around 8,400,000 births?

Dadashri: Yes, just the one Atma.

Questioner: But the Atma is pure, is it not?

Dadashri: The Atma is pure even now. It has stayed pure in spite of its wanderings through 8,400,000 births (yoni)! It has always remained pure and it will always remain pure.

Questioner: So then, what is the reason for its wanderings?

Dadashri: The Atma has no reason; it is only in bliss. The one who is in pain has the desire to get rid of the pain. However, the Atma is blissful!

Illusion Creates Differences

Questioner: Why have differences (bhinnatva) arisen in the world? If there were no differences, the Atma’s oneness would have spread throughout the world. There is a difference between happiness (sukh) and unhappiness (dukh), there is even a difference between wealth and poverty. Why did this difference come about?

Dadashri: Nothing like that has arisen, and nothing has been destroyed. Creation and destruction are just circumstances (avastha) that you see. Nothing happens to the main element. Those with illusion ( bhranti), see the differences in the phases. The main element does not change.

It is the deluded intellect (viparit buddhi), that shows you all that. The intellect (buddhi) has been born. Until the end, the intellect will keep you trapped in all this. Now if the intellect ever retired, your work would be done. But it will not retire, even at the age of eighty.

Questioner: There is a difference between water and taady (toddy; fermented palm juice).

Dadashri: Of course, there is a difference between all these things! They are different by nature. Taady looks white, but when you drink it, it goes to your head (inebriates), and water will not go to your head. Each one cannot be prevented from displaying its effects, now can it?

Questioner: Amongst every kind of living beings (jiva), including humans, there are differences in their diet.

Dadashri: There is a difference! There are differences in each and every thing. There is a difference even between two mustard seeds.

Questioner: Why did that difference arise? If it was not there, then there would only be happiness (sukh).

Dadashri: Yes, but they are all just imaginings! It is this intellect (buddhi) which is responsible for making you imagine, ‘if this was not there, it would have been like this, and this would have happened’, but you should just take those words out of the dictionary. ‘If it was like this, then this would have happened’ are words that should not be there, and you should never keep them in your dictionary.

Questioner: So has the Atma Parmatma (Absolute Soul)

created this difference? Did it do it purposefully or did it happen naturally?

Dadashri: No, there is no difference whatsoever. Whatever one perceives is just one’s own wrong belief. It is like a man who reads a book during the daytime, and comes across a passage about ghosts, and when he is alone at night and he goes into his room to sleep, as soon as he hears the mice rattle a cup in the other room, he gets shaken up right away! Now from the time the ghost entered his mind, it will carry on affecting him unless it leaves altogether.

Questioner: Even within this entire universe, there exist differences among every living being (jiva).

Dadashri: There are no differences in any living being. All living beings are one by nature. The differences only exist through one’s drashti bhed (different perception). And these differences are governed by Nature. Moreover, the differences are external; they are differences in the clothing but not at the main level within.

Questioner: There is a difference in behavior. In the way cows, goats, buffaloes are all vegetarian, and lions and tigers are carnivores. Who created these differences? Why are there differences? Is it because the embodied soul (jiva) is different? Is it because their physical bodies are different? Or is it a worldly difference? Is it because of their different life-form (jiva), that there is a difference in the way they live?

Dadashri: No. It is not like that. Listen to what I am going to say! There are so many casts and communities, but they do not all eat meat, do they? So if they had to go into the animal realm, where would they go? They would go into communities where there is no eating flesh. It means they would go into non-carnivorous species such as cows and buffaloes. Whereas meat-eating kings, aristocrats and such, will all go to the animal realm. And where do you think they go? They do not become cows and buffaloes. They become lions and tigers. Therefore, all these arrangements are very systematic! In every country, warriors are born as a rule!

In this world, each human of the same race, thinks differently to another. Why is that? This is round, it is a circle; do you see that? Humans are living within a 360 degrees boundary. This means that at whatever point or degree one stands on, he will only tell you about what he sees from where he is standing. He is not at fault. All the differences in opinion rely on the degree. That is because the degrees vary. But when one comes to the center, one realizes what the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) is! What the world is and how the world runs.

The Divine and Extraordinary Intent of Jagat Kalyan

Questioner: That ‘the Atma exists’; the Jain, and the Vedantis have all said that. But why do they not universally accept the scientific thought of today?

Dadashri: They will not. They will not be able to understand it! Every faith in Hindustan (India), accepts the Atma’s existence (astitva). Foreign (non-native) people do not believe in the Atma’s existence. That is because they do not yet understand reincarnation (punarjanma). It is only those who understand reincarnation; that believe the Atma exists.

Questioner: So if this is the universal truth, then why is it not accepted universally?

Dadashri: This is how it is: the truths may be universal; however, they are relative (sapeksha) truths. Although I am speaking to you, this other man sitting here will not understand what I am trying to say; whereas you will understand instantly. Therefore, everyone has differing viewpoints, and no one other than those from Hindustan, will understand anything that pertains to the Atma. If foreign scientists came to me, I would explain everything to them. Scientists alone can understand this, but only to a certain extent. That is because they have yet to develop (evolve)! Where spirituality is concerned, foreign (non-native) people are still under-developed.

Questioner: Why can someone from Hindustan not make an effort to spread this message universally so that it reaches everyone?

Dadashri: This message can reach. But at the present time, the light of the Vitarag Lords; their message, has been covered over! I am the only Gnani Purush at the present time. I am ready to give detailed explanations to all the questions of the entire world. I am ready to give complete explanations to all the four billion people in the world. But first, they need to get together with me. Otherwise, what can I do? How would I reach them all? The fact that you have encountered me is scientific circumstantial evidence, and it is because we have met, that your work gets done. If not, those who do not encounter me; will not accomplish their work. Everything will be resolved for the person who comes to me, or else he will not resolve anything!

However, I am thinking of bringing all the scientists together one day – in fact, all the scientists of the whole world! And at that time, I will openly show them the truth about: what the body is made of? What the mind is? How the mind is born? How does the mind come to an end? What is intellect? What is Atma? How does this world run? This is all a science (vignan), and if it reaches people, they will greatly benefit from it!

Questioner: That is exactly what I was trying to say, that if they receive from you the knowledge, ‘I am Atma, I am asang (free from all material association)’ and all that, then just like one and one make two, it touches them. ‘I do not have the energy (shakti) to stir anything.’ And if they can experience that all the time, imagine how much it would help them! That would do the greatest good!

Dadashri: This is how it is: the world does not see things in just one way. That is because everyone’s viewpoint is different, so not everyone needs this. All I can do is say that, I will explain the Atma to them. But the next day, they would not have retained a thing. This vision (darshan) will not reach, and all the effort will be wasted! This effort can only be fruitful, if it is made for those in Hindustan! Can you imagine how beneficial would it be for those in foreign countries? We can guide those scientists about this path, so that they can explain it to their people in their language. Only then will it reach every home. My idea is that the message of this vignan (science), reaches every corner of the world, and that peace should prevail everywhere. My inner intent (bhavna), my wish or desire, call it what you may; is just this!

That Is When the Light of Gnan Shines

The real knowledge in the world; the universal truth is something that the intellect (buddhi) cannot reach. It is beyond the intellect. That is where the intellect comes to a halt. When you cross the last layer of the intellect, you enter the light of Knowledge (Gnan); you have entered into the universal truth. So when all the layers of the mind end; the layers of the intellect (buddhi) then begin. And after the intellect’s layers come to an end; one enters the light of Knowledge (Gnan prakash). But no one can reach there. Alas, they have not even managed to reach the layers of intellect (buddhi) yet! So they dwell in the layers of the mind.

Only The Gnani Sheds Light on the Reality of the World

The Gnani Purush can show you everything in the world. The Gnani Purush can show you all the things that are not in the Vedas, nor in the scriptures. That is because the Gnani Purush is your medium and through this medium you can know everything. Besides, the Truth is something that cannot be recorded in books, because it is inexpressible and indescribable; so how can you blame the Vedas? Of course, I can explain things to you, using examples and association (sangnya), but how much of the sangnya would the Veda do? The Vedas will not give you any answers to this. What the Vedas have not given, is the task for the Gnani Purush!

What people consider as chetan (the Self; Atma), is really all worldly; there is no spirituality in it. The Atma is the main thing and that which you consider, Atma; all that is also worldly (bhautik). There is not even a hair’s worth of Atma in it, only that you mistakenly believe that. This is because the main Atma is not mechanical. And you believe the mechanical atma to be the main Atma. However, the mechanical atma is the worldly atma.

Dadashri: Do all these people have chetan (the Self) or are they without it?

Questioner: They have chetan.

Dadashri: How can you tell that they have chetan? Through what characteristics?

Questioner: By the movements of the body! It enters the body and it only makes it move.

Dadashri: Does it make it move? The body? The Atma does not do any of that. That, which makes the body move, is the mechanical atma. What you consider as Atma at the present time; is really the mechanical atma. No one, except for the Gnani, can know the real Atma. The real Atma lies on the other side of the mechanical atma, and it is that Atma which stays in this body. Besides, the real Atma is not in a position to carry out any kind of movement (halan-chalan); it is not capable of doing any kind of activity (kriya).

When a part of a lizard’s tail is cut off, it still carries on moving. Does the tail have any soul (jiva) in it? Then why does it thrash around?

Questioner: In that sense, it is an independent attribute of the prakruti.

Dadashri: Therefore, anything that moves about, is not chetan (Atma). Then what is the distinguishing characteristic (lakshan) of chetan (Atma)? You could say, ‘That where there is Knowledge (Gnan) and Vision (Darshan), you can be certain, that chetan (Atma ) is present’. The knowledge-vision (gnan-darshan) that you see in the world today, is not chetan (Atma). That knowledge-vision is the distinguishing sign (lakshan) of the intellect (buddhi). So really, even that is not chetan, but the fact that there is chetan there, is certain.

In this tape-record, there is no knowledge (gnan) and there is no feeling; therefore there is no chetan in it. It does speak (produce sound), but it has no chetan in it. Who is talking to you at the moment? You do agree, that someone is talking to you, do not you? Should you not have to determine, who is doing the talking? Who is talking to you?

Questioner: The pudgal (non-Self complex) is.

Dadashri: Yes, it is the pudgal that does the talking, and it says, ‘I am talking’. Chetan does not possess the attribute (gunadharma) of speech. If speech were the attribute of the Atma, then is it not possible that sometimes a person could stop talking? So speech is not one of the Atma’s attributes.

All the attributes of the Self are those of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). If it had to speak or move about like this, it would become tired. Would it not get tired? Therefore the Atma does not possess a single attribute that could come to an end.

If movement was indeed one of its traits (guna), then it would get tired by the evening, and you would have to go to sleep. Therefore, movement is not an attribute of the Self (Atma).

All the attributes of the Atma are permanent. The ones that you are talking about are all temporary attributes; they are relative attributes, and relative attributes belong to the relative-atma. At the moment, what you consider to be your own Atma, is really the relative-atma, and the real Atma is inside of that. When you have the realization of that real Soul (Atma), is when you can get your work accomplished. Do they not talk about realizing the Self? You have heard the word Self-realization, have you not?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: You can realize the Self, when you have the realization of the real Atma, the Self!

The Atma the World Understands

Have you ever seen chetan (Atma) in this world?

Questioner: All this that we see, is chetan.

Dadashri: No. You cannot see chetan with your eyes, you cannot hear it with your ears, nor can you taste with your tongue. Chetan is not something you will ever be able to experience through your five senses. The world has never seen chetan (the Self); nor has it ever heard it, and it has never come in the conviction and faith. That which people refer to as chetan, is in fact, mechanical chetan, which they are calling chetan ( Atma)! The mechanical chetan is the one that eats, drinks and breathes. How long would this chetan last if you pinched your nose and stopped breathing?

Questioner: A quarter of an hour.

Dadashri: So then, it cannot be chetan (Soul). This is the chetan’s mayavi shakti (illusory energy), which has arisen. The chetan has been touched (sparsha) by the Atma within, and thus it appears in the form of chetan,but in truth, that is not chetan. It is an illusory chetan.

That, which the world considers to be chetan, is the chetan of their perception (drashti); it is not exactly chetan. That chetan is referred to as nischetan chetan (energized self; mechanical chetan). So it is a discharging thing. When it is discharging, it is nischetan chetan. All that humans do; walking, moving about, and everything else, is all nischetan chetan. It is only because of the presence of the Atma, that this entire machine is running. If the Atma were not present, then this machine would not work at all; it would stop.

What would happen if you closed your mouth and kept your nose pinched? The one who resides within, will empty the entire room and leave. How can you call that chetan? That is the mechanical chetan. If the world had ever come to know the real chetan, then today, it would have been blessed! It is not even in a state, that it would know it. This mechanical chetan is said to be in motion (sachar; movable), and the real chetan is said to be still (achar; immovable); therefore the world is sacharachar (movable-immovable).

There is indeed chetan in the body. But it is an effective chetan. What kind of chetan is it? It is a charged chetan (charged soul). Now, if it is a charged chetan, then you cannot call it the original chetan (muda chetan- main Soul) at all! Is there a mistake here or not? Do you realize that it has been misconceived up until this time? All the beliefs were filled with errors. Should there not be exactness to it?

Questioner: So, is it the mechanical chetan that is throughout the body?

Dadashri: Yes, the mechanical chetan.

Questioner: So then, where is the real chetan?

Dadashri: The real chetan is all throughout the body! And the mechanical chetan is just the outer layer.

In truth, the Atma which people consider as Atma, is in all actuality, the mechanical atma. ‘We’ are not giving you the mechanical atma. ‘We’ are giving you the still (achad) Atma.

In the Kramic marg (Traditional step-by-step path of spiritual progress; Self-realization), the mechanical atma itself, is believed to be the real Atma, and the mechanical chetan is considered to be the Atma itself. When the ego (ahamkar) becomes pure (shuddha), meaning that there is no longer any room for anger (krodh), pride (maan), deceit (maya), greed (lobh); when the ego becomes pure in that way; completely pure, that is when the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) and the pure ego (shuddha ahamkar), become one. So this is how it is in the Kramic marg!

Whereas, this is Akram Vignan (the spiritual science of the step-less path to Self-realization)! Here, the Gnani Purush places the pure Soul directly into one’s hands, the still (achad) Atma itself, it would not be mechanical even by name. That is the kind of untainted and pure (nirlep) Atma he gives you!

Questioner: Is the state of consciousness (sabhaan avastha) that we have within us; which shows us the good and the bad, what we would call chetan?

Dadashri: No. That is all nischetan chetan (energized self); it is not the soul (chetan) at all. That is why I am telling you that to know chetan, is an extremely, extremely difficult task. All along, what people have known, is nischetan chetan. If you wanted to say it in English, then it would be mechanical chetan. Anything which has: anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh); attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh), mind-intellect-chit-ego (mun-buddhi-chit-ahamkar), is all mechanical chetan.

If the Atma were to do anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh), speak, or do anything, then its habit of doing all that, would never go away. What people believe in, is the mechanical atma. The mechanical  atma, speaks, walks and does everything; it is an illusory (bhrant) atma. The real Atma itself is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)! When you come to know it, your work will get done; otherwise, until then you will not get your work done.

Now if you believe that the mechanical atma is your own Atma, then when will you come to your senses? That is precisely why I say that the world has never known what the Atma really is. Moreover, what is not Atma, is precisely where they attribute: this, that is thinking is the Atma; that is moving, walking, talking, doing, jumping, laughing, singing, eating, drinking, earning, fighting, sleeping – is all Atma!

Doing introspective meditation (samayik), repeating mantra (japa), penance (tapa), religious meditation (dharma dhyan), is Atma – that is what people say, and so what I would say to that is – there is absolutely no Atma there at all. Now if you have so many huge errors in the calculation alone, then would you ever be able to come up with a daily balance?

So the businesses they run, the daughters they marry off, the sons they get married, is all done by the mechanical atma, while the achad (still) Atma, just sees it all. They both have different natures (dharma). This mechanical atma may appear as though it is alive; in your mind it may seem to you that it is indeed chetan, but in truth, it is not chetan.

In the Vitarags’ Vision, the Atma Is…

What you see, is all machinery; it is not the Atma. That which others call Atma, is not what ‘we’ (the Gnani Purush) call Atma. Even the Vitarags – do not call it Atma. The Vitarags called the real Atma (the Self), Atma; whereas these people call everything that is non-Self (anatma), as Atma. If you went and asked all of them, ‘Sir, have you yet to attain Self-realization ( Atmagnan)?’ and the person would reply, ‘Of course, I will have to know Self-realization!’ So you would say, ‘Is it not the

Atma that you are talking about, the real Atma?’ Then he would say, ‘Yes, that is right, this is also an Atma; nevertheless, I will still have to know Self-realization!’ So what does that mean? That the Atma that the Vitarags have seen; that Atma has never entered the awareness ( laksha) of these people. Alas! It has not even occurred to them in their thoughts. That Atma is still (achad) Atma, whereas these people call the mechanical atma, as the Atma.

The mechanical atma is not the real Atma; it is in the form of a discharge. It is called as discharge chetan. One is the charge chetan and the other is the discharge chetan. It is Atma, but it constantly charges and discharges. Do you more or less understand what I am telling you?

So the Atma is not what the world believes it is. Once a person knows the Atma, there is nothing more in the world that he needs to know. So only the One who has nothing more left to know in this world, ‘knows’ the Self, the Atma.

That is why we have called it pratishthit atma (the belief of ‘I am Chandubhai’, relative or charged self). People go on believing that this is the Atma, and it is this, that they try to make still and steady (sthir). Do they not try to make it still? However, its fundamental nature is to be restless and active (chanchal); its very nature (swabhav) is to be active;it ismechanical. When you attempt to make it still, it is a “waste of time and energy”. The entire world considers it as Atma, and believes that only if it is made still, will the work get done. But this pratishthit atma is ever moving (sachar); whereas the real Atma is immoveable (achad).

Questioner: This is mechanical and the ‘switch’ has been turned on, is that not so?

Dadashri: Its mechanical (part) has already been done, so you do not need to bother too much about that. It has already been filled with the right amount of petrol (fuel), so it will carry on working, and you will not have to put any more fuel into it; you will not have to do anything. You have to keep seeing this mechanical (thing). To See and to Know is the nature (swabhav) of the Atma.

Questioner: Do we not have to do anything?

Dadashri: You do not have to do a thing. Wherever you have to do anything, that itself is mechanical atma!

That is why people keep chasing after the mechanical atma. They even proclaim, ‘This is the Atma! Who else, other than the Atma can do all this?’ That is what they know. This is all really happening because of the presence of the Atma, and its own real guna (properties; qualities; traits) remain in their own nature (swabhav). But because of the wrong belief, a non-Self complex (prakruti) with different properties (vyatirek guna) has arisen, and everything is then run by the prakruti! But the wrong belief stays the same; ‘I am this, and I am that.’ A person has no concept of the real thing. That is because from birth, he receives those kinds of impressions (sanskar). First they call him a baby, then he is given a name. Once the name is given, it is with that name that he becomes known as nephew, paternal uncle, maternal uncle, and this is how all impressions of terrible ignorance (agnanta) are instilled.

The worldly life(sansar) means to plunge deeper and deeper into ignorance (agnanta). If a person were a Gnani in his past life, even he would hear the echoes of ignorance (agnanta), again in this life. But when the karma unfolds again, he would regain awareness ( jagruti). But the very rule of this worldly life is that people will fit a person with wrong belief.

If a man is not married, we may ask him, ‘Do you have a wife?’ and he would say, ‘No. I have not been married.’ But when he marries, he then becomes a husband. When the wife dies, he even becomes a widower! So this is how the world is. The phases (avastha) in this world are all temporary, and You (the Self; Atma) yourself, are permanent! But one is not aware of this.

One believes, ‘I am a sinner (paapi)’ and even that is the mechanical atma; it is the part which is agitated (chanchal). That, which runs this worldly life (sansar) only remains absorbed in the worldly life; is the atma which is all mechanical atma. Even if you did not want to run it yourself, the machinery would go on running. The original, real Atma is still (achad); not even slightly agitated ( chanchal). Because of not knowing this Atma, it has been said, ‘Know Atmagnan (Self-realization)’.

Even the most prominent saints and spiritual leaders (sant purush) all say, ‘Know Atmagnan’. We may ask one, ‘You are a sant purush, and you do not even know yourself?’ and they will say, ‘No. Only Atmagnan is really worthknowing!’ Therefore, knowledge of the Self, Atmagnan is a task for only the Gnani Purush and no one else. No one had ever known Atmagnan.Whatever they all refer to, is what they have understood from the perspective of the mechanical atma. After knowing the Atma, one’s state would be quite unique indeed!

The entire world could not taste a single fraction of the Atma, is how the Atma is; it is still (achad), and it is truly the Parmatma (the Absolute Soul)!

By just uttering the word Atma, people have latched on to it saying, ‘I am Atma, I am Shuddhatma (pure Soul).’ Hey now! You cannot be the pure Soul. Do you see Shuddhatma in others? When someone does any harm, why do you become annoyed? So therefore, all this is nothing but mechanical atma. So far, what the entire world has discovered; has been the mechanical atma.

Or, when they do discover the atma they are looking for, they will only have found the mechanical atma! So, except for the main Shuddhatma (pure Soul), the rest is a moving (sachar) part; it is mechanical. And the pure Soul is the still (achad) part. The nature of the pure Soul is Knowing (Gnayak). But this is moving, meaning that it is prone to be mechanical and carry out activity. So they are two separate and different things. They work differently. However, it is possible to experience the separateness, except that one does not have that awareness, and it is to bring about that awareness, that ‘we’ give you this Gnan (Atmagnan: the Knowledge of the Atma; the Self).

Mishra Chetan Then Becomes Mechanical

Questioner: Somewhere, you have used the word mishra chetan, so what is the difference between that mishra chetan and this mechanical chetan?

Dadashri: It is all one thing. But you can call it mishra chetan (‘I’ with wrong belief) in the beginning; at that time, it is not mechanical. But when it starts to discharge, that is when it becomes mechanical. When it becomes firmly established, it becomes a discharge form, and that is when it becomes mechanical. It is not mechanical at first.

As soon as you start having negative thoughts from here, that mishra chetan begins to form. It then becomes firmly established, and when in the next life it yields results, it will be considered mechanical. At the present time, you cannot call it mechanical. After a period of time, mishra chetan is considered mechanical. It is not called mechanical at first. It is called mechanical when it begins to discharge; it is a discharging chetan.

Egoism, but Still in the Form of a Tool!

Questioner: The part that you call nischetan chetan (life withoutLife; Energized self), whose manifestation we see everywhere in the world, is the nischetan chetan that believes it will be able to understand the chetan, grasp it, and bring it within the reach of the intellect. To what extent is this claim true?

Dadashri: What other resource (sadhan) do they have besides this? There may be nischetan chetan in it, but there is the egoism (presence of ego) in it. It is that egoism which is working here. And because that egoism is there, they will definitely succeed; otherwise, one cannot attain chetan (Self) with simply the nischetan chetan alone.

What Is ‘I’ as an Element?

Every living entity in the world has awareness of its existence (astitva): ‘I am’, but it does not have awareness of its elemental essence ( vastutva): ‘What am I?’ And this is why illusion (bhranti) prevails in the world. When the awareness of ‘What am I?’ arises, it would then be regarded as the awareness of one’s Self (vastutva). And once the awareness of one’s Self is attained, complete (purnatva) awareness, happens naturally on its own. The awareness of vastutva (the Self), happens through bheda vignan (the science that separates the Self from the non-Self). When the separation of the non-Self (jada) and the Self (chetan) occurs, it is then that the awareness of the Self ( vastutva) occurs.

And in this world, you cannot call anyone naastik (who believes that God does not exist; atheist; without existence). Can you call anyone naastik? Who can be called a naastik? No one in the world is born a naastik. And when one says, ‘I am naastik’, it is only his wrong belief (vikalp). Otherwise, no one is born a naastik. What does naastik mean? It is that which does not have existence ( astitva). But you yourself are the proof of existence (astitva)! The fact that one says, ‘I am a naastik’ itself proves one’s existence! Just saying this, is itself considered existence. Besides, the word naastik is wrong belief. Wrong belief (vikalp) means that it is a kind of ego (ahamkar) like, ‘I am an atheist (naastik) and he is a theist (aastik; believing in existence of God)’!

Questioner: Right now, it is as if a person cannot establish

his existence (astitva), and he cannot feel (experience) his own existence, so although the existence (astitva) is there, he does not have a conviction about it. Is that not right?

Dadashri: No. There can never be any such person who does not feel the sense of ‘I am’ (existence). Everyone has the feeling, ‘I am’. The words ‘I am’, themselves proclaim one’s existence.

This is how it is: every living being (jiva) has its existence, and it is aware of that existence (astitva). So it has some kind of awareness of ‘I am’, and that awareness never leaves. Even at night, while asleep, one is aware of ‘I am’. So, one definitely has the awareness of existence. However, one does not have the awareness of vastutva (the Self); ‘Who am I?’ Now, if a Gnani Purush were to give him the knowledge ( Gnan) and it manifests, then he would advance.

What we are saying is that every living being has awareness of its existence (astitva), but it does not have awareness of its Self (vastutva ). If one realizes ‘Who he is’ (vastutva), then one continues onwards towards the absolute state (purnatva). And the absolute state is independent (niralumb); it happens on its own, naturally and spontaneously (sahaj swabhav). Just as after the second day of a lunar fortnight (beej) there is the third lunar day (treej), and then the fourth lunar day (choth), it all happens naturally on its own accord, does it not? As long as you do not become obstinate, there is no problem. But if you uproot the sapling (of Gnan) in this way, then it becomes a problem. And if it ever gets uprooted, then you should know how to replant it!

When everything is explained to you, you will see that the Atma stays the same. However many kinds of human beings there are, and however many types of living entities (jivas) that there are, there are that many kinds of Atma. However, there is no true (darasal) Atma in that. All these are mechanical atmas – do you understand that fact?

Should You Know Atmagnan? Or…

Questioner: Can we say that if someone knows Atmagnan (Selfrealization), that he also has knowledge of the non-Self complex (paudgalik)?

Dadashri: In truth, you do not have to know Atmagnan (Selfrealization); you just have to have the awareness of your own nature (swaroop; the Self). A person is in a state of unconsciousness (bebhaan); he has no awareness (bhaan) of his own nature (swaroop). That is the awareness (bhaan) which he must get. One can use words to say that he has to know it, but he has yet to attain his own Self awareness. That is why our shastra gnani (experts of scriptural knowledge), all know about Atmagnan, but cannot get the awareness (bhaan). They know everything; they can recite all the scriptures by heart that, ‘This is how the Atma is; it is exactly like this’; they know all that, but they cannot get the awareness (bhaan) of it.

…Which Is the Easier Method?

There are only two things in all this: the Atma (Self) and the pudgal (non-Self complex). He that knows the Atma; has understood the pudgal, and he that knows the pudgal; has understood the Atma. However, it is not possible to understand the pudgal; it is not a very simple thing. With the help of the Gnani Purush, it is possible to know the Atma.

The Vedantis (those involved in Vedanta; Hindu scripture), have endeavored to know the non-Self complex (pudgal), for which they had written the four Vedas. That is because it is possible to know the Atma, after having known the pudgal. But they became worn out from trying. Therefore, the four Vedas said, ‘This is not That. This is not That. This is not That.’ So the Vedantis tried to examine it by way of the pudgal; whereas those with absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnanis) took a different approach of inquiry: ‘Who we are in fact.’ Examine that, and the rest is all pudgal (non-Self complex)!

So the pudgal (non-Self complex) alone, is not an easy thing to understand; it is something extremely profound. And without the Gnani Purush, no one will be able to understand it. It has such a profound significance, and this pudgal’s karamat (special qualities; skills) are extraordinary, that it is something altogether different. The world itself has become perplexed. Just look at how one pudgal has managed to confuse the entire world! Even though one does not like to quarrel, one still has to.

If one knows the non-Self complex (pudgal) completely, then one knows chetan (Atma; Self), or if one knows the Self (chetan) completely, then one knows the non-Self complex. Just as if you know what wheat is, then you would recognize the bits of grit in it, and if you know the bits of grit, then you will recognize the wheat.

Questioner: So you can go by any of the two ways?

Dadashri: Yes. You can reach by any path. It will work even if you have a preference towards a certain path. That is why I tell all these people, because so many of them come and say, ‘Sir, I’m just in ignorance (agnanta).’ You silly man, how can you even be in ignorance (agnan)? Even if you were completely in ignorance, you would recognize knowledge (gnan). You do not even have complete ignorance here. This is neither here nor there. What does that mean? That one half of the log is charcoal, and the other half is wood. What do people call that?

Questioner: Half-burnt (ardhadagdha).

Dadashri: Yes. So you tell the timber merchant, ‘Take this away, sir’. And he would say, ‘No, what would we do with that?’ And when you ask the coal seller, he would say, ‘Why would we want a piece of wood?’ So no one would take it. No one even wants to purchase it. The wood man does not want to take it and neither does the coal man.

Even With Complete Ignorance, One Can Find the Atma!

And the whole day is just spent in worry. While gnan (scriptural knowledge) sits on the shelf. Alas! Even if there were ignorance (agnan), it would still be good. Find me one such man in Hindustan (India), who has attained ignorance (agnan). Even if he has attained ignorance, I would say to him, ‘son, you have understood this shoreline (kinaro), so you will understand the other shoreline as well.’ But he has not even understood that side. Whichever side he is standing on; even there he has no awareness (bhaan) of where he stands. So he has not even become one who is ignorant ( agnani). He should know either the ‘wheat’ or the ‘grit’; then he will know both.

The four Vedas (Hindu scripture) have said, ‘This is not That, this is not That, na iti, na iti’. However, they have not even completed the ignorance (agnan). If they had completed it, there would be no reason to say, ‘this is not That (na iti)’, and then the other knowledge would have come forth. But from there, they became weary of saying, ‘this is not That (na iti, na iti)’. The Veda of course, gives an explanation of knowledge (gnan) and ignorance (agnan). However, if ignorance (agnan) were allowed to be completed, then the Atma would have presented itself. But they did not allow it to complete.

The World – As It Is

Discuss whatever you want openly. Here, we will talk about the world, as it is. ‘We’ will say ‘no’ to ‘that which is not’, and ‘yes’ to ‘that which is’. ‘We’ cannot say ‘yes’ to ‘what is not’ and ‘no’ to ‘what is’. ‘We’ are responsible for each and every word. We have all the information needed to get you there. Because not for a single second, have I become the owner of this body, nor have I become the owner of this mind.

This speech, is the original tape-record that is speaking; I am not speaking. That original tape-record is the speaker (vakta) and you are the listener (shrota), while I am the Knower-Seer ( Gnata-Drashta), and that makes this a unique sort of interaction.

That is why every solution arrives. And when there is not a single solution left, you should know that Gnan has indeed manifested. There is just inner satisfaction (samadhan); there is always constant inner satisfaction, and that is called Gnan (Knowledge). Anything that gives you inner satisfaction and closure (samadhan), in whatever state, in whatever circumstance, and whatever time, is called Gnan. So talk about whatever you want to. The Gnani Purush is considered higher than the four Veda.

You can ask any question, because we see, and then ‘we’ speak. I do not utter a single word; that has been read from books! I say it as I see it, which is why it is helpful to others. And even then, I am not the speaker. It is a tape-record that does the talking; I am the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta).

Veda Is Theoretical, Science Is Practical

We (the Gnani Purush) are above the four Vedas. When one has finished learning the four Veda, it is then that the Vedas say, ‘this is not That’.

Questioner: Why are Vedas and Gnan, two separate words?

Dadashri: The Vedas are based on the intellect (buddhijanya), they involve activity (kriya), and they comprise aspects of the three qualities (trigunatmak: rajas – passion and desire, sattva – goodness and awareness and tamas – unawareness and darkness). And Knowledge (Gnan) cannot be trigunatmak, it cannot be based on the intellect (buddhijanya), and by nature it can only be chetan (the Self). Gnan is always chetan.

Questioner: So is the Veda also not full of knowledge?

Dadashri: That knowledge is not useful for final liberation (moksha).

It is a means to attain knowledge (sadhan gnan). There is no knowledge of the goal, the Self (sadhya gnan) in it. Because it contains the means to attain knowledge (sadhan gnan), it means that it is based on the intellect (buddhijanya). And this is why the Veda itself says, ‘this is not That’. The Atma that you are searching for, cannot be here; it is indescribable (avarniya), it is inexpressible (avaktavya), and it is not found in words. And the Veda is in the form of words (shabdaroop). Therefore “Go to Gnani”, where the Atma can come into your hands. He will say, “This is That!”

Veda is knowledge that is based on the intellect. And this Gnan is knowledge of the Self (chetan Gnan). Knowledge based on the intellect ( buddhijanya gnan) means: what is the difference between the intellect and knowledge? That direct knowledge is called Gnan. Indirect knowledge is called intellect (buddhi).Veda is knowledge in the form of words, and so it is understandable through the intellect ( buddhigamya). Veda is theoretical and Gnan is practical.

Questioner: Does that mean it can be experienced (anubhavgamya)?

Dadashri: Yes. It is something that can be experienced (anubhavgamya),and that is the real knowledge.Everything else however, is theoretical. That theoretical is in the form of words. And knowledge of Atma (chetan Gnan) lies ahead, much further ahead of words. It is inexpressible ( avaktavya), and indescribable (avarniya). It is impossible to describe the Atma; the Vedas could not do it at all!

Nevertheless, the Veda is one kind of guiding tool (sadhan). It is not something that helps you attain the ultimate thing. Unless you meet a Gnani Purush, you will never accomplish your work.

Questioner: Is the difference that exists between Gnan and Veda, just a verbal difference? Is there some kind of intellectual exercise involved?

Dadashri: It is only intellectual.

Veda itself is intellectual, it is trigunatmak (possessing three qualities: sattva, rajas and tamas). And the real Gnan cannot betrigunatmak; it is science (vignan) itself. Vignan (Science) is real knowledge, and this knowledge (Veda) is its means ( sadhan vastu).

Question: That is correct. But both the words ‘Gnan’ and ‘vignan’ (science) have been used in one place in the Vedas.

Dadashri: You cannot use the word science (vignan) in that context. The Vedas guide you in the direction of science (vignan); they point it out. But the science itself cannot be described and it cannot be expressed. Moreover, you will not find it in books.

Questioner: Knowledge is Truth (Satyam Gnanam), it is said! Do not they also say, ‘I am the infinite Soul’ (Anantam Brahma)?

Dadashri: Whatever the words are, they are correct! However, Veda is trigunatmak (possessing three qualities of the prakruti: passion-rajas, virtue-sattva and darkness-tamas); it has nothing to do with anything else!

Questioner: But Gnan possesses the qualities of passion, virtue and darkness (trigunatmak: rajas, sattva, tamas), does it not!

Dadashri: The knowledge that pertains to these three qualities (trigunatmak) is called the intellect (buddhi). Veda only does one thing, and that is, it develops the worldly life (sansar). It slowly and gradually develops anything that is based on the intellect (buddhijanya), and together with that, should you meet aGnani Purush, then your work would be done: you need to find an instrumental person (a nimit), that is all. If you do not find a nimit, then your work will not get done.

What does the Veda say? It says that this encompasses all the intellectually based knowledge (buddhijanya gnan), and so it has come to be known as Vedanta. Now Gnanjanya Gnan (experiential Knowledge of the Self, that arises from Gnan) means science (vignan). You have to enter it to become familiar with it.

The Gnani Is Evidence of Moksha

Questioner: The Vedas have mentioned twelve steps that, lead one from human happiness (manushya anand) to bliss of the Self (brahmaanand), they have described how you can go from one step to the next.

Dadashri: And even at the final step, which is the twelfth step, they only know that sugar is sweet, that is all they know, but what is meant by sweet, they do not know.

But upon reaching the twelfth step, where they become convinced that, this is the sweetest of all things, and that they do not need anything more other than this. But what does sweet mean? That is what they are looking for, there. Then, if the person meets a Gnani Purush there, that nimit (instrumental person), who then would put into his mouth that, ‘This is That’.

Questioner: Now, are you telling me that Gnan is an internal thing, or that Veda is an internal knowledge? So, is Gnan in Veda, or is Veda in Gnan ?

Dadashri: Gnan is in the Veda and the Veda is in Gnan, but science (Vignan) is outside the Veda.

Questioner: Gnan (knowledge) and science (vignan)are both given in the Veda.

Dadashri: They are all words that have been given. They are not the real thing. It is sweet, is what they have written; however, they have not written the experience. There is no experience in the theoretical.

Questioner: Ancient sages (rushi-munis) experienced it.

Dadashri: Yes, but that experience is not so easily attained. Such an experience is only attained by way of an experienced person (purush), who is a nimit (instrumental in the process); otherwise it does not happen. Not everyone can do that; the Gnani Purush stands in the middle, as the instrument!

Questioner: Even in the Veda it says, that one cannot do without a guru (spiritual teacher).

Dadashri: Any talk that invalidates the guru; is all crazy talk.

Questioner: For this established (siddha) fact, the sages and the ascetics who are proof of this established fact; are no longer around.

Dadashri: What is the thing, that has been made established (siddha[*)*], like? It is natural (sahaj), it is easy to understand (sugam), but it is very difficult to attain (durlabh). This is because you have to meet the one who has attained it (a prapta purush), and then you can attain it. What is a prapta purush like? He is someone who is himself liberated (mukta); who is independent (swatantra); who never has a single thought about the worldly life (sansar); who has no thoughts related to women (sexuality), nor does he have thoughts about his existence ( astitva), and in whom there is no ‘I-ness’ (potapanu). Where there is no ‘I-ness’ (potapanu), that is where your work can be done.

Someone like you comes and asks me, ‘sugar is sweet, so give me a taste of it.’ So I would put it in his mouth, saying ‘This is That’. Thereafter, he will constantly be in the Atma (in the Self), and not budge from there afterward, even for a moment. Constantly in the Atma, twenty-four hours in complete awareness (jagruti)! Here, the entire world sleeps with eyes open. We are only excluding the real thinkers from this; however the rest of the world is sleeping with its eyes open.

Even the Word Is Temporary

Questioner: Now word (shabda) is eternal (nitya), but many say that word is transitory (anitya), so which one is true?

Dadashri: Word (shabda) is transient (anitya).

Questioner: Some say that word is eternal.

Dadashri: However many are saying so; nevertheless I will give you the truth once and for all. And whatever they tell us after that is fine; there is no insistence ( aagraha) on our part.

Even the truth (satya) that there is in the world, is not truth; even it is untruth (asatya). Truth is always eternal (avinashi), and of its own nature (swabhavik). And this word (shabda) is not natural. Words come out when there is friction. Therefore, words are circumstance. They happen due to two or three circumstances, and therefore it is not a natural thing.

Questioner: What is said about words being transient (anitya), is correct. Now Veda is composed of words, and yet the Veda is believed to be eternal ( nitya).

Dadashri: There is nothing in those accepted beliefs. What would you call eternal (nitya)? It is something which is always eternal (avinashi), and which is itself in an eternal form (vastu swaroop). There is no change in it; it only has one single nature (swabhav), and that nature never changes. The Atma is eternal (avinashi). Thiselement of space (aakash tattva) is eternal (avinashi).

The non-Self complex (pudgal), this element of subatomic

particles (parmanu), which are the smallest part of an atom (anu), the indivisible part (parmanu); that is an eternal element ( avinashi tattva). The element of motion (gatisahayak tattva) that gives motion to all these things, is eternal (avinashi). And that which helps maintain the stationary (static) state, that element is called inertia (sthitisahayak tattva), and it is eternal. Even time ( kaad), is an eternal element. Therefore that, which does not deviate from its nature (nirvikalpi); the nirvikalpi truth (satya) in this world, are these six things (eternal elements). Only six things (eternal elements) are the truth (nirvikalpi satya), in which no change occurs, and that possess their own nature (swabhavik).

Even the Means to Attain the Self Is Vikalp

Questioner: The technology of the Vedas, that show us an approach, is that truth?

Dadashri: It is helping to you. You have taken the wrong path, so it is helping to bring you back. If you had not gone the wrong way, then the helping would not have been there.

These Vedas, whatever name people ascribe to them, originate from the very mouth of Lord Rushabhdev (the first Tirthankar of this time cycle).

Questioner: That is true. Now in this Omkar, what truth is there in it?

Dadashri: There is a lot of truth in the Omkar. But even then, what truth would that be? It is a truth through the ego (vikalpi satya). Even so, that false (vikalpi) truth can take you towards the eternal (nirvikalpi). That is the path, that is that road-way!

Questioner: Now the goal (sadhya) is complete (purna), brahma (Atma) is complete (purna). The means (sadhan) is uncertain and incomplete (vikalpi), but regarding time and place, is it possible to support the intent to attain the ultimate goal (purna bhaav)?

Dadashri: If other circumstances (saiyogo) come together, then it is possible. But in the end, there has to be a circumstance (saiyog) of a nirvikalpi guru (a guide who has attained the Atma), which has to be the Gnani Purush, who has nothing more in the world left to know. In this world, there is not a single thing left for him to know!

Questioner: What is an egoless being (nirvikalp purush) like?

Dadashri: In an egoless being (nirvikalp purush), there is not a single drop of intellect (buddhi). There is not a single drop of intellect, which is why he is called an egoless being.

Questioner: Then in the Gita, they give a description of both the kshar purush and the akshar purush, so does akshar purush mean an egoless person (nirvikalp purush)?

Dadashri: Kshar (perishable) is this body itself. Akshar is vikalpi (bavo -is the ego and all the wrong beliefs). The Self, the egoless ( nirvikalpi) is beyond kshar-akshar.

Vikalp Foils the Final Opportunity

Otherwise, I know the Atma. If you tell me to give you the Atma, then I would give you the Atma.

Questioner: But I want to live in the interaction of the worldly life (vyavahar).

Dadashri: But when you live in worldly interaction (vyavahar), the interaction (vyavahar) ought to be ideal (aadarsha). When can you say that you have attained the Atma? Only when the interaction (vyavahar) in your own home is perfect and ideal (aadarsha) will you be able to attain the Atma. If not, then it is not just a matter of running away into a cave, like they all talk about! Atma is not something that entails caves.

The caves are something which is on trial basis. Otherwise, if one’s worldly interaction is beautiful and ideal (aadarsha), then there is no anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh) in it. There are good relations with neighbors, and one has a good relationship at home with his wife.

Questioner: But you do not have to look for the Atma, does the darshan not happen on its own?

Dadashri: What has happened is that where the path has broken down, these people have laid down paths that are all ornamental. The main path, after periods of dozens of drought and famine (dukaad), was completely destroyed, and so they created ornamental paths. Therefore, it came to be said that, ‘Truth can only be discovered through one’s own effort!’ Just look at this! For everything else, you have to go to college; whereas one can discover this Truth ( satya), in one’s own home!

Otherwise, a person with ego (vikalpi) can never become an egoless person (nirvikalpi). A seed that is vikalpi, never becomes nirvikalpi; one just gropes about in vain. An instrumental person (nimit) is needed. Vikalpi and nirvikalpi are both, just two differing viewpoints (drashtipher). If a person’s vision (drashti) becomes nirvikalpi (with Self knowledge); if someone does it for him, then he becomes established in the absolute truth (nirvikalp). Only the vision (drashti) needs to be changed. This is not possible through study (abhyas). If it could be managed through study, then they would be studying. But in fact, the whole viewpoint (drashti) is different.

Therefore, when a person realizes his own true nature (swaroop; the Self), he then becomes established in the Truth (nirvikalp). When he becomes established in the Truth (nirvikalp), the ego (ahamkar) and the ‘my-ness’ (mamata) disappear, that is all! The ego and the ‘my-ness’ go away; it is all the extraneous properties (vyatirek guna) which disappear. The ‘my-ness’ (mamata) is greed (lobh) and deceit (kapat).

And the ego (ahamkar) is anger (krodh) and pride (maan). This is how these four qualities (gunas) have arisen, thus the Gnani Purush separates two things: he makes a division, a line of demarcation between the Atma (Self) and the non-Self (anatma ), so that they are separated! Furthermore, it is separate! It is indeed separate.

When One Becomes Intellect-Free, One Can Become One With All

Questioner: But Veda gives us a description of oneness (abhedta), does it not?

Dadashri: Yes. But has everyone not given us a description of abheda (absence of difference or distinction; non duality; oneness)? But to attain oneness ( abheda) is difficult. Unless you dissolve the Veda and drink it, you will not have oneness. That is because as long as the intellect (buddhi) does not leave, oneness will not arise. The intellect creates a division (bhed). Who creates division (bhed)? It is those with intellect; they are the ones that create division.

Now, if you wanted to make your whole village free of intellect (abuddha), then how long would it take? How long would it take to make a man without any intellect? Could it be done instantly?

Questioner: No, it cannot.

Dadashri: So until then, there cannot be oneness (abheda). You will have oneness, when the intellect (buddhi) goes. It is the intellect that creates differences: this is mine and this is yours; it makes a person emotional.

Questioner: Is it the intellect that makes you emotional, or is it the heart which makes you emotional?

Dadashri: No, only the intellect (buddhi). Even someone without intellect (an abuddha) has a heart.

Questioner: Have the scriptures not called the intellect nischayatmika – the one that makes resolutions and decisions (nischay)?

Dadashri: Yes. The intellect (buddhi) makes decisions (does nirnaya), yet it even makes one emotional.

Sa-iti, Only Through Vignan – the Science of Separation

The Atma is not something that can be contained in the Vedas. The words in the Vedas, pertain to a gross and overt (sthool) language; whereas the Atma is extremely subtle (sookshmatam). How can the two agree? One is gross (sthool) and the other is subtle (sookshma); how can the Veda possibly describe that? The Atma is inexpressible (avaktavya) and indescribable (avarnaniya); there are no words for it, so it would never go down in the Veda. And so they may say, ‘Is Veda not the only knower of all things in this world? So who would know beyond the limits of the Veda?’ And we would say, ‘No one below the Vedas can know that. Even the Veda would not know. But he, that is above the Veda; is the Gnani Purush who is the only one who knows what the Atma is!’ The Gnani Purush may even say to you, ‘This is That, This is That.’

Questioner: How can one go from, ‘this is not That’, to ‘This is That’?

Dadashri: To go from ‘this is not That, to ‘This is That’, requires the science of separation (bhed vignan): that the Atma is not this; It is This; it is not this; It is This. And no one, other than the Gnani Purush, has this science of separation.

Whenever Gnanis do arise, they only take a few people along with them. But this is Akram Vignan. Science (vignan) means that this is chetan. Which means, that you do not have to do anything. The Gnan itself will guide and caution you. This Gnan itself will continue doing the work. This is why it is Akram Vignan.

Veda is in theform of knowledge (gnan) and the Knower (Vetta) is in the form of science (vignan). Gnan cannot procure results on its own (kriyakari), and science produces results (kriyakari).

Questioner: Even the Vedas were exhausted when it came to describing the one who is in the form of science (vignan swaroop; absolute knowledge form)!

Dadashri: Yes, they got tired! Because how is the Veda able to understand the Knower (Vetta)? The Knower can understand the Veda, but how could it be possible for the Veda to understand the Knower? What does Vetta mean? The Knower. He is the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta). The word Vetta itself seems really small in appearance, does it not?

From Whom Do We Attain the Atma?

You can ask everything here, you can ask about the four Vedas (Hindu scripture) and you can also ask about the four Anuyogas (of Jain literature). Here, you can ask anything about Jainism, Vedanta or the Quran. That is because you can ask someone who has gone beyond the Veda!

Questioner: How can one go higher than the Vedas?

Dadashri: When the Light of Knowledge (Gnan Prakash) occurs, one can rise above the Vedas.

Questioner: So it is not something that is comprehended through the intellect (buddhigamya)?

Dadashri: No. It is not something which is understood through the intellect (buddhigamya). All the things that were understood through the intellect are found in the Vedas. And to go beyond intellectual understanding (buddhigamya): go to the Gnani; who has absolutely no intellect (buddhi). Go to a Gnani Purush, who is considered abuddha (state in which intellect is not utilized; intellect free), then you can attain the Atma from him. If not, then you will not attain the Atma. Where there is Atma, there is no intellect (buddhi), and where there is intellect there cannot be Atma!

Questioner: Are you saying, that by studying the Jain religion, one can attain Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan)?

Dadashri: No. And even from reading the four Vedas of Vedanta (Ancient Hindu scripture), it is not possible to attain the Atmagnan. When all the four Vedas come to an end, they themselves say, ‘this is not That’. The Atma you are looking for is not found in these. Therefore, “Go to the Gnani”. You cannot put the Atma down in books. The Atma is indescribable (avarnaniya), it is inexpressible (avaktavya), and therefore it cannot be placed in books. Therefore it is the Gnani Purush’s work. Only he, who has attained the Atma, can show us the Atma . It is not the work for anyone else in the world.

Questioner: They may not be able to show us, but can they not help us study that?

Dadashri: They only give you a direction; they point things out to you. So you can get some sort of rough idea about it. But they do not give you the experience of the real thing.

Questioner: But you can experience your own Atma by yourself, can you not?

Dadashri: No, it is not like that. Without the Gnani Purush, you cannot get the experience; it has not happened to anyone. Only he that is free can, free others. If one is oneself, caught up in all these entanglements, how is he supposed to free others? That is why you need a savior ( tarantaaran purush). He has himself gone across (the ocean of life), and he is able to do the same for everyone, and that is where your solution lies.

Questioner: So can you attain Atmagnan through the study of shruta vani (knowledge from hearing the speech of enlightened beings)?

Dadashri: Shruta vani and everything are helping aids. Through shruta vani, the chit (inner component comprised of knowledge and vision) strengthens, and day by day the chit becomes clean and pure (nirmal). And with a clean chit, if you meet a Gnani Purush, then you would grasp the knowledge (Gnan) more and more quickly and very well.

Questioner: You attain knowledge (gnan) through a guru (teacher), but you can only receive Gnan from a guru who has himself experienced the Atma, is that not right?

Dadashri: He has to be a Gnani Purush, and moreover, just giving you the experience of the Atma alone, is not enough. You only accomplish your work when the Gnani Purush gives you the answers to, ‘Who am I?’ ‘How does this world run?’ ‘Who are You yourself?’ ‘Who is this?’

Nevertheless, you can carry on reading books, but they are helpers. They are not the principal thing. They are just ordinary causes, they are not extraordinary causes. What is an extraordinary cause? The Gnani Purush!

Just One Staircase but Different Steps

Questioner: Jain darshan, Vedanta, Adwaita vaad, Sohum, Aham Brahmasmi, Ekoham Bahusyam, Sarva Idam Brahma ; are they all the same?

Dadashri: Just as a staircase and a ladder, are the same thing, all these are the same thing. But as far as the stepping goes, they are all considered different.

Neither Dualistic, Nor Non-Dualistic, The Atma Is Dualistic – Non-Dualistic

Questioner: I want to understand dwaita and adwaita. Please explain them.

Dadashri: Tell me what you understand about adwaita.

Questioner: That I am the only truth (satya), and besides myself, there is no other truth. What I am, is itself the truth, and whatever else that seems to be the truth, is not the truth. I call that non-duality (adwaita).

Dadashri: So then, is there a need at all, to look for the truth (satya)? So if, I am myself the truth (satya), then there is no need to look for the truth. So then why do you read books? Does your spiritual doctrine (siddhant) not say exactly this, ‘Only I am the truth (satya)’?

Questioner: In order to have faith and devotion (nishtha) in the spiritual doctrine, and strengthen the spiritual principle that accomplishes the ultimate goal (siddhant), you have to read the book, do you not?

Dadashri: But this doctrine (siddhant) cannot be correct. What is your name?

Questioner: Chandubhai.

Dadashri: So is Chandubhai the truth?

Questioner: Chandubhai is the name, and the name is not the truth.

Dadashri: Then what is the truth? Become the truth (satya), and then speak.

Questioner: Truth cannot be conveyed through words, can it?

Dadashri: Even so, who are you then? If we say, ‘Chandubhai has no sense’, it would offend you. It affects you; therefore you really are Chandubhai.

Questioner: So as long as it affects me, I am Chandubhai, is that it?

Dadashri: Yes. And even when someone insults me; it does not affect me, or if they hurt me; it does not affect me, and even when someone picks my pocket; it does not affect me, because then I know that I have entered the corner of adwaita (non-duality). As yet, you do not understand adwaita at all.

Now, I will explain duality (dwaita) and non-duality (adwaita) to you. You do want to know, do you not?

Questioner: Yes, absolutely.

Dadashri: Is non-duality (adwaita),dependent or is it independent? Does non-duality have proof, or is it unproven?

Questioner: Independent (niradhari).

Dadashri: And duality (dwaita)?

Questioner: Once you are in non-duality, duality (dwaita) is no longer there at all.

Dadashri: Now they are teaching all the wrong things like, ‘There is no duality (dwaita)!’ And when it comes to the worldly life (sansar), if someone picks their pocket, they start hollering! Goodness! Where do you think all this dualism (dwaita) comes from? Then he will say, ‘Call the police, he is a thief, he is the one who picked my pocket.’ You foolish man, did you not just say, ‘there is no dualism (dwaita)’!? So where did the dualism come from? Even you are full of dualism. I am not criticizing you here, but if you want to understand the truth, then non-dualism (adwaita) is not like this. Until then, how can you attain the true happiness; the happiness of your own Atma, even for a moment? Does this enter into your understanding?

Non-dualism(adwaita) is not something that is unsupported (niradhari).Non-dualism is there because of dualism. Non-dualism is there on the basis of dualism. Do you understand on what basis?

Questioner: Dualism is required for non-dualism.

Dadashri: Yes, it is on the basis of dualism (dwaita) that

non-dualism (adwaita) exists. And anything that is based on anything else, is considered dependent (sapeksha). And a dependent can never turn into an independent (nirpeksha). Therefore, people have defined non-dualism as independent! If you could understand this fact, then you would have the solution.

Questioner: But we only believe in the independent (nirpeksha).

Dadashri: One should only believe in the independent (nirpeksha). But should you not have to understand the independent?

Questioner: We take non-duality (adwaita) to mean independent (nirpeksha).

Dadashri: Yes. You have done all that on your own. However, its meaning relies on what your mind accepts. But that cannot be accepted as the rule, can it? If you want to give a meaning to independent (nirpeksha) per what your mind accepts, you can do it. But it would not be considered legitimate. I would legitimately say, ‘Is non-dualism (adwaita), supported (aadhari) or is it not supported (niradhari)? And the response would be that ‘it is supported (aadhari)’. Then on what basis is it supported? ‘On the basis of dualism (dwaita)’, they will say.

It is in relation to dwaita, that adwaita is there; adwaita is relative (sapeksha). And people call it nirpeksha (without dependency)! Does your Atma agree with what I am saying? Your Atma should accept what I am saying, because I am telling you the correct thing. I am a man who is beyond taking sides. Those who are involved in partiality can never be true. You should listen to those who are not involved in partiality.

Do you now understand that non-dualism (adwaita) is dependent (sapeksha)?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: The non-dualism (adwaita), that you believed to be independent (nirpeksha), turned out to be dependent (sapeksha). Do you now realize where you were wrong, up until now?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: When those who believe in non-dualism (adwaita), ask me, ‘so, what is the Atma like?’ Then I tell them, ‘The Atma is not in the form of non-duality (adwaita) at all, and neither is it dualistic (dwaita). The Atma is both dualism and non-dualism (dwaita-adwaita )!’

What does dualistic – non-dualistic (dwaita-adwaita) mean? It means that, “by the relative viewpoint”, the Atma is dualistic (dwaita). As long as there is the body, there will always be this “relative viewpoint”. Do you not have to go toilet? Do you not have to eat? That is through the relative viewpoint, which is why the Atma is dualistic. And “by the real viewpoint”, the Atma is non-dualistic (adwaita). But when it leaves here to go to moksha (final liberation), it will no longer have an adjective there. It only has an adjective, as long as there is the body. It is because the body exists, that it has these adjectives: dualistic (dwaita), non-dualistic (adwaita). After it has gone to moksha, there is no adjective anymore. By relative viewpoint; ‘I’ am dualistic, and by real viewpoint; ‘I’ am non-dualistic.Therefore, ‘I’ ambeyond dualism and non-dualism (dwaita-adwaita)!As long as the body is there, non-dualism (adwaita) cannot exist on its own.

What is the real reason for saying non-dualism (adwaita)? It is so that one does not place the applied awareness (upayog) in the “foreign department” (the non-Self). That was the real intention. But instead, it became misinterpreted. Do not place your applied awareness (upayog) in the ‘foreign’, and remain only in the ‘home’. Home is non-dualistic (adwaita) and foreign is dualistic (dwaita). Whereas right now, you believe that foreign is home. ‘I am this Chandubhai’, is what you say. You have not even seen ‘home’ yet. When you see ‘home’, there would not be any worry, frustration and amidst all the externally induced problems that cause suffering (upadhi), you will experience oneness with your Self (samadhi)!

Dualism – Non-Dualism; Both Are Dualities

One man came to me and told me, ‘I have become non-dualistic (adwaita)’. And I said to him, ‘Where did you come up with that word? What are you calling non-dualistic?’ So he says, ‘I do not live in the dualism (dwaita)’. ‘Then what do you stay in?’ I asked. Then he says, ‘I only stay in theAtma’. Goodness! How did he become like that? You cannot just stay non-dualistic (adwaita). Non-dualism (adwaita) is supported (aadhari). What is it supported by? It is supported by dualism (dwaita); otherwise it would fall. It is because it is supported by dualism ( dwaita), that non-dualism (adwaita) has persisted. When you say that you have become non-dualistic (adwaita), you are essentially casting abhorrence (dwesh) on dualism (dwaita). So what will happen? You will both end up fighting. Then he says, ‘That is correct. But according to our belief non-dualism (adwaita) was independent (nirpeksha)’. Hey! How can you call something that which requires support ( aadharik), independent (nirpeksha)? Non-dualism is dependent (sapeksha).

There are so many words that transcend dualities. Certain words like compassion (karuna) transcend duality. Whereas the word adwaita (non-dualism), is adwaita, because dwaita (dualism) is there, which is why, it is thought to possess duality (dwandva). Just like profit and loss, and all the two words that contradict one another (antonyms), are all considered dualities (dwandva). So because we have dualism ( dwaita), we have non-dualism (adwaita). Therefore, he has not gone beyond duality (dwandva) yet, he is still in duality. Even non-dualism is considered duality (dwandva), do you understand that? Just like profit-loss is considered a duality; good-bad, happiness-unhappiness, are also considered dualities, and in the same way, this dualism – non-dualism (dwaita-adwaita) is a pair which is also a duality ( dwandva). Just as there is kindness, there will undoubtedly be cruelty as well! So if there is a kind person, you should also know, ‘O ho ho! There is also cruelty in him’! And so dualism (dwaita) and non-dualism (adwaita) exist as duality. It is not a state that is beyond duality (dwandvatita). So someone who says, ‘I am non-dualistic (adwaita)’, is still in a state of duality (dwandva). Then how much upadhi (trouble) is there in that duality (dwandva)?! The person who is non-dualistic (adwaita) will continually be having notions about duality (dwaita) day and night, that this is dualism, this is dualism, this is dualism, and this is what he does throughout his entire day. As if dualism is going to eat him alive?! Therefore this dualism and non-dualism are dualities (dwandva). One has to go even beyond that.

You can call it as dwaita if you say, ‘Karma and I; both are there’. That is called dualism. What those who are non-dualistic (adwaita ) say is, ‘It is only I: there is no such thing as karma.’ Therefore, dualism and non-dualism do not exist on their own. That is because the Atma is dualistic – non-dualistic (dwaita-adwaita). The Atma cannot only be non-dualistic, and neither can it be just dualistic alone. With respect to the worldly life (sansar), when it has a connection with worldly interaction (vyavahar), it is dualistic (dwaita); however, if it remains in its fundamental state; its real form (swaroop), then it is non-dualistic (adwaita). Therefore, when ‘we’ remain in our own Self, ‘we’ are completely non-dualistic.

When Does the Experience of Non-Dualism Occur?

Questioner: Can non-dualism (adwaita) be experienced? Who experiences it?

Dadashri: Non-dualism can be experienced. Once the experience of dualism (dwaita) occurs, then comes the experience of non-dualism (adwaita). This worldly life (sansar) is dualisticby nature. After you have had the experience of it, you can then have the experience of the non-dualism. When you no longer have disagreements with your wife, when you do not have disagreements with your father, and you do not have quarrels with anyone; if you have such an experience, then you will have the experience of non-dualism (adwaita). Only he that has the experience of dualism (dwaita), can have the experience of non-dualism (adwaita).

What does adwaita mean? That is what one needs to know! All of this, is for the purpose of knowing the Atma. If you do not know the Atma, then you will just carry on wandering! And those who exist in duality (dwandva), are all in limbo (wandering about)! Those who are in duality, cannot be considered non-dualistic (adwaita). What does duality mean? It means that those who have good-bad, advantage-disadvantage, and that kind of duality, cannot be considered non-dualistic.

Become Non-Dualistic: Rise Above Duality!

Non-dualism(adwaita)is the name for someone that has become dwandvatita (transcended duality).Non-dualismis not something fake. It is because dualism exists, that non-dualism is able to exist.On whatbasis does it exist?

Questioner: It exists on the basis of dualism.

Dadashri: Yes, so therefore it is a relative thing, and a relative thing can never become real.It is because of dualism, thatit remainsnon dualism, it is however, a relative thing. And a relative thing can never become real. And the Atma is something that is real. So when one talks about non-dualism (adwaita), he is just talking big, but there is no substance in what he says. If he is non-dualistic (adwaita), then we should verify it by asking him, ‘Sir, tell us whether or not you are beyond duality (dwandvatita)’, and if he says, ‘We are beyond duality’, you should believe it as correct.

He has to become beyond duality (dwandvatita). He has to rise above these dualities of profit-loss, happiness-unhappiness; he should not be affected by them at all.

So whom can you call non-dualistic (adwaita)? It is the one who has become dwandvatita; the one who is beyond duality. Then nothing like advantage or disadvantage would ever touch him. To him, it is the same, whether someone picks his pocket, or showers him with flowers. Whether someone yells abuse at him or slaps him, it is all the same to him. Then it is called non-dualism (adwaita).

What Compassion Towards Understanding the Truth!

So you want to understand non-dualism, do you not?If you want theexact understanding, then understand it methodically. Do not compromise your stillness (sthirata). By methodical I mean that whatever ‘we’ say, holds true for the past, the present and the future. No changes can be made to it. ‘We’ are telling you the ultimate thing, through which people will attain the real truth.

The entire issue ofnon-dualism(adwaita) has infiltrated everything! So it needs to be said that, ‘anyone wanting to understand adwaita, should come here to Dada. Why are you holding on to the wrong thing?’ And if ever someone comes along to oppose me, then it will not matter to me. It would not matter to me even if they swore at me. I would give him a meal. And after calming him down, I would make him understand what I am saying. Even when he swears at me I am able to sleep; whereas if I were to swear at him, he would not be able to sleep. So I could not hurt him and besides, I will be able to sleep! So you will have to sort it out, will you not? How long can this go on? I do not want to do anything in it. I am an instrumental being (nimit), and I have received this directive (aadesh).

Questioner: Whose directive (aadesh) have you received?

Dadashri: I have received the directive of the present time and space (deshkaad)!

Questioner: This talk of yours is scientific!

Dadashri: Yes, it is scientific talk. That is because there is no superior above me, to give me orders (aadesh). But I have received orders from time and place (deshkaad). When people hear the word orders, someone will always assume that I have a superior above me (upari). No, I do not have any superiorat all. Moreover, in the worldly interaction (vyavahar), I am laghuttam (the lowliest of lowliest; smallest of all), but really speaking I am the most superior of all (guruttam).

So where is the problem? I do not want to be superior (guruttam) in worldly interaction (vyavahar), because all those that were superior in worldly interaction (guruttam in vyavahar), ended up, with four legs, from having two legs. That is the rule! That is if you are above others in worldly interaction, you will undoubtedly end up with four legs. And only if you have the humblest of intent (laghuttam bhaav) in your worldly interaction, will there be a solution.

Insistence on a Single Viewpoint Obstructs Atmagnan

Now, one says that the Atma is not the doer, while the other says that the Atma is the doer, so they are both stuck in a hole. That one is stuck in the non-dualism (adwaita) hole, and this one is stuck in the dualism (dwaita) hole! The Atma is not like that. The Atma is dualistic – non-dualistic (dwaita-adwaita). On the grounds of the body (the non-Self), it is also dualistic, and as the Self, it is also non-dualistic. So if someone takes the adwaita (non-dualistic) hole, then he cannot prove the Atma. The one who is non-dualistic ( adwaita) will continually have confusing thoughts about the one who is dualistic (dwaita), and the one that is dualistic, will continually have confusing thoughts about the one who is non-dualistic. Now, they cannot go beyond this confusion based on ego (vikalp). When you say that the Atma is dualistic – non-dualistic (dwaita-adwaita), it means that you have gone beyond the confusion that is based on the ego (vikalp), and that is called an egoless state (nirvikalp).

Therefore, the Gnani Purush says it exactly as it is; that the Atma is dualistic – non-dualistic (dwaita-adwaita); it is dualistic (dwaita) and it is also non-dualistic (adwaita). How long will this adjective of dwaita-adwaita (dualistic – non-dualistic) apply? While it is involved in the worldly life, it is dualistic, and when it is contemplating on its own Self (Swa-dhyan), then it is non-dualistic. There is the body and there is also Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan); therefore it is considered dualistic – non-dualistic ( dwaita-adwaita). People see the man and they also see the Absolute Gnani (Keval Gnani). However one sees it; that is how it will appear! Therefore, the Atma never becomes non-dualistic (adwaita). That is because, when it leaves the body from here, and attains final liberation (moksha), then there in Siddha gati (abode of Liberated Souls), it will lose its adjective. The adjective is there as long as the body is there. Therefore we have to accept these adjectives. Those who are stuck in the hole of non-dualism (adwaita), would be considered ekantik (adhering to a single viewpoint, while excluding all other viewpoints), and if they are stuck in the hole of dualism (dwaita), they are also considered as adhering to one single viewpoint (ekantik). And if you accept any path that is ekantik, then final liberation will never come into your hands. If you want to attain the Truth, one has to side with non-insistence on one’s own truth or viewpoint (niragraha). Insistence (aagraha) itself is ego.

Truth (Satya) certainly exists in everyone, but only according to one’s own degree. Each one’s truth is according to his own measure. And the truth according to the world (vyavaharik satya), in the Lord’s language, is untruth (asatya). When you say, ‘I am Chandubhai, I am his uncle’, and all that, it is untruth in the language of the Lord. It is dependent and with expectation (sapeksha); it is not independent or void of expectation (nirpeksha ).

It is wrong to get caught up in partiality (pakshapati – on one side; to side with), partiality means standard. And to stay in a standard, would be considered adherence to one’s own truth (ekantik). Nevertheless, people should stick to their own rules. However, in the Ultimate state ( aatyantik), there are no rules; it is all-encompassing and accepting of all points of view (anekant). There is no insistence or stubbornness (aagraha) in it whatsoever. It carries on with exactness. With it, you can reach ultimate salvation. Otherwise, all these sects and denominations, are just standards. When one becomes impartial and does not side with any viewpoint (nishpakshapati), then it becomes worth it. When you become impartial, then you are out of standard.

I am only here to tell you everything that is correct. And if you say to me, ‘No, I am right.’ then I would not sit around with you any longer, I do not have that sort of time. Then I would not get into an argument with you. I would tell you, ‘By your viewpoint, you are correct’, saying that, I (‘we’) would let it go. If you want to understand truth, I am here to help you understand; or else time would be wasted, and it would be a waste of time and energy! Many have misunderstood the Gnan because of their own perceptions. How can I go around modifying everyone? If you need help, then you should ask me.

That is why you need to understand dualism (dwaita) and non-dualism (adwaita). In this time-cycle (kaad), how can you say non-dualism? Non-dualism did not exist even before! Besides, even I cannot say non-dualism.

There is no sense in accepting anything without first putting it to the test. If you do not know how to test it, you should not just say, ‘this is how it is.’ Even the foreign scientists do not say, ‘this is the way it is.’ They will say, ‘this is how we see it.’

Brahma Is Satya, the World Is Also Satya, but…

This whole concept is fundamentally wrong; the whole thing is illusion (bhranti)! Even then it is not entirely wrong either. What if you are sleeping with your mouth open and someone puts a little chili pepper in it? Will it feel like an illusion (mithya) then? They say, ‘ Brahma satya, jagat mithya’meaning the Atma is real (Brahma satya) and the world is an illusion (jagat mithya), would it still appear as an illusion, then? This world (jagat) is relative correct. And the Atma (Brahma) is really (real) correct. That is the only difference. Now if you had a toothache, try saying, ‘illusion, illusion (mithya, mithya)’. Have you ever had a toothache? Would you say that it is mithya at the time? Do they not say that? Therefore, the Atma is true (Brahma satya), and the world is also true ( jagat satya). You have to get treatment for your tooth. If you do not, then it will become a problem.

Questioner: So is this world true (satya) or is it an illusion (mithya)?

Dadashri: Do you think that it is true (satya) or do you think that it is an illusion (mithya)? How does it seem to you? What does your experience tell you?

Questioner: An illusion.

Dadashri: Do you feel that it is an illusion? Now when someone swears at you, does it not affect you? And when someone slaps you, does it not affect you?

Questioner: It does affect me.

Dadashri: So how can you call the world an illusion

(mithya)? How can you call something which affects you, an illusion? It has an effect; therefore the world is not an illusion!

Does the mother-in-law not cry when her son-in-law dies? Or is it not a custom in your culture?

Questioner: Yes, she will cry.

Dadashri: Yes, how can you say that it is an illusion (mithya)? Therefore this world is true (satya), but it is relative truth (vinashi satya).

The world is not an illusion at all! The world is not anything like an illusion (mithya). If the world were an illusion, then these people would have taken off and abandoned it a long time ago! This world is real (satya). If it were an illusion, then if a man was sleeping with his mouth gaped open at night, like this, what would happen if you threw a chili pepper into it from a distance? Will he scream or not? Would you have to go and wake him up from his sleep? Why? Would it affect him even if you do not wake him up? How would he be able to tell? Therefore, if it were an illusion, then this would never happen! Just look, is also the world not real? But the world is a relative truth: the Atma (Brahma) is real truth.

Questioner: It is illuminated by the light of Brahma (Atma), is that why it is relative truth?

Dadashri: Yes, it is illuminated by its light, which is why it is a relative truth (satya). And because it is a relative truth, it is indeed a truth, however, it is an temporary (vinashi) truth; whereas the Atma (Brahma) is an eternal (avinashi) truth.

If the world were really an illusion (mithya), then people would have elected for the Atma. But even this world is true (satya). That is why they do not let go of the world. Does anyone outside, speak of letting it go? Someone will say, ‘Come on, let us go shopping.’ I would say, ‘Come I will give you moksha (liberation).’ And he would reply, ‘Forget that! Just let me run my business happily.’

Therefore, the world is real (satya). ‘My wife, my children’, does he not talk like that? And he becomes obsessed with woman; he dies for her and even commits suicide! So if it were an illusion (mithya), would anyone do that? Illusion (mithya) – even the pesticide to kill bedbugs is not an illusion. If you drank it, would you not know whether or not it is an illusion? And if you did drink it, would it not cause a commotion? Therefore Brahma (Soul) is real (satya), and the world is also real. The world is a relative truth (satya), and Brahma is a real truth.

You Will Have to Understand the Facts

Questioner: So the interpretation of the term, ‘The world is an illusion (mithya)’ that they give us, is completely wrong then, is it not?

Dadashri: In whichever time-cycle (kaad), that meaning was necessary, it was interpreted in that time-cycle. But exactly (in truth), this world has never been unreal (mithya).

Questioner: So is it because of maya that it appears as mithya?

Dadashri: This cannot be maya! What would you say is illusion (maya)? If someone does magic, and shows you some rupees (money) in your hands, but even then it has no effect on you at all; that is called maya. Maya as people understand it to be – this world is not like that maya.

Maya (illusion) is to not understand the vastu (The Self: it has dravya-matter, guna-property and paryaya-phases); exactly as it is. That is called maya (deceit). It is this maya that does not allow you to understand anything exactly as it is: that is what you would call maya. What do people understand about maya? They will say, ‘This is all how it is, it is all just maya’: it is not like that. Maya means that it does not let you understand vastu (The Self) exactly as it is – that is called maya.

Otherwise, the Atma is real (Brahma satya) and the world is unreal (jagat mithya), they said all that to make people renunciate (tyaagi): ‘that my dear fellow, all this is unreal (mithya), what are you going to get out of this unreality (mithya)? So forsake your worldly ways, become a tyaagi, renounce it and move ahead.’ It was with this intention that they said that. But really one should say what the world is, as it is. So then it would be easier to climb that way! Or else, not everyone would accept illusion (mithya)! Only some people will accept unreality (mithya). They may speak it, but no one accepts illusion. If this little boy is given a kite in his hands, would he throw it away? We may say to him, ‘it is not real (mithya), throw it away.’ Would he throw it away? He would not throw it away. Therefore, the world is a relative truth ( satya). Yes, no one will say, that it is a real truth (satya). Because it can readily tear, can it not? And at that very moment the affection for it instantly goes away by itself. Whereas with the eternal element (avinashi tattva), there is no question of it tearing.

So this world is not false (mithya) either. The world is relative correct and the Atma is real correct. Relative correct means it is temporary correct. It is only there for a certain period of time. Some may last for a hundred years; some will last for five-hundred years, some will last a thousand years, some will last five thousand years, while some may last for five years, or they may even last for a single year. Things that last for a certain period of time; are all relative correct, and things that prevails through past, present and future time (trikaad), are real correct!

Some people come and tell me, ‘No, but the world is just an illusion (mithya)!’ Then I would tell them, that if the world is an illusion, do they see anyone throwing money away in the streets? If you go out and about in the streets, would you find money laying about? People lose their money, do they not? They lose money and then they cannot find it. So if the world were an illusion, then no one would pick up the money! That is why the world is not an illusion, it is indeed truth (satya). However, it is a relative truth (satya), and it is temporary (vinashi).

Brahma (the Self) is real correct. And everything else that you see with your eyes, that you experience through the five senses, is all relative correct! There is absolutely no wrong thing in this world, however as long as you need material happiness (sukh); fleeting (vinashi) happiness, then you should stick to the relative truth (satya) and carry on wandering around in the relative. And there is so much misery and externally induced suffering ( upadhi) behind all the worldly, material happiness (bhautik sukh), that one only invites difficulties. When a person experiences this struggle, then he understands how he endures it! And if you want eternal happiness (avinashi sukh), then go to where there is eternal truth; truth that exists for past, present and future time (trikaad). The relative is the foreign department and the real is the home department. So if you want to go home, then go home, and if you want to stay in the foreign, then stay in the foreign. But if you believe that the foreign is home; you will get nowhere.

Having Attained the Eternal Truth, the Relative Truth Remains

Satya (true) and mithya (untrue) are really two things, right? Or is it just one thing? Now I will explain to you what satya is. What is your name?

Questioner: Chandubhai.

Dadashri: Now, are you really Chandubhai?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Yes, so that is true (satya). Even others say that this is really Chandubhai. Your father would even say, ‘this really is Chandubhai.’ Therefore, that is true. However, it is a temporary truth. The truth (satya) of the world will be accepted in courts, but the Lord will not accept it.

Now, really you are not Chandubhai. Chandubhai is your name, is it not? Your name is Chandubhai, and you are Chandubhai – do you see a contradiction between the two?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: So the world’s truth, according to the Lord, is a temporary truth. This name, this form and everything else that is considered real (satya), is all temporary (vinashi), as far as the Lord is concerned. And the Lord’s Sat (Truth), that which is in sat-chit-anand; that Truth ( Sat) is eternal (avinashi). I will help you attain the eternal Truth, and thereafter, this truth (satya) will disappear!

What does Sat mean? It means permanent. Then chit means knowledge and vision (gnan-darshan). And if knowledge-vision ( gnan-darshan) stays permanent, then the bliss (anand) stays forever. Did you understand?

Now do you understand truth (satya) and untruth (mithya)? Or did you not understand? There is both truth in this and untruth in this. What you believe is truth (satya), has turned out to be false (mithya). But that unreal (mithya) and the real truth also happen to be separate as well! This Chandubhai which used to be the truth, has now become false (mithya).

What should the real Truth (Sat) be like? This Chandubhai is ‘relative correct’. And who is the real correct? That is something you still need to find out. That is what I am going to show you, that is the real Truth (Sat); which is always the truth! Do you want to realize the eternal Truth ( Sat), or not? Or at another time, or it does not matter when it happens? Your hair is still black, so if you are not in a hurry, then you do not have to! Those with gray hair, have worries! So, you want to get your work done too? Is that right?

Ignorance Shrouds the Brahma

All these scriptures have been written, for the purpose of knowing Brahma (the Self; God). It is for the attainment of Brahma, that they were written. And since people have not attained Brahma, they are wandering about relentlessly! Until the ignorance (agnanta) of one’s own Self (swaroop) goes away, nothing will be resolved. Everything else is just imagination or whim (kalpana). There is no end to the imaginings ( kalpana) that people have drawn up.

Questioner: Then who obstructs the attainment of Brahma (Self)?

Dadashri: The obstruction (badhak) is ignorance (agnan)! Impurity (mudd), difficulties due to illusion (vikshep) and ignorance (agnan), are the three things that are obstructions. So what do these people do? They just keep on trying to get rid of impurity (mudd) andvikshep. But nowhere do they try to get rid of ignorance (agnan). Now, why is it that no effort is being made to get rid of ignorance (agnan)? That is because, there are no Gnani Purush around. Only rarely, once in thousands of years does a Gnani Purush’savatar (incarnation) occur! Otherwise, there is no Gnani. If there is a Gnani, then the ignorance will go, and when the ignorance ( agnan) is gone, then everything is gone. Therefore, the biggest cause of obstruction is ignorance. Once that ignorance is gone, one has the realization of ‘Who am I?’ And when that it is realized; the awareness will never leave.

Questioner: So can you say that ego (ahamkar) is a covering (avaran) over the attainment of Brahma (Self-realization)?

Dadashri: Yes, it is true that the ego (ahamkar) is a covering (avaran), but the ego is not considered a covering. There are so many other things that are coverings. It is not just the ahamkar (ego) alone. The main covering is ignorance (agnanta) of one’s own swaroop (the Self). If for just once, you come and know ‘who you are’ from ‘us’ (the Gnani Purush), then that ignorance will be dispelled. Then there should be no problem whatsoever.

Questioner: What is the fruit of attaining the Brahma (Self)?

Dadashri: The fruit of attaining Brahma, is a state of absolute bliss (parmanand). Despite the body, you will enjoy a state like Janak Videhi (a Self-realized king); a godlike state! The worldly life (sansar) will no longer touch you or affect you. One would not be touched by someone placing a garland around his neck, or someone throwing stones at him; even then it would not touch him.

The Difference between the Vision of God and the Vision of the Self

Questioner: What is the difference between the vision of God (Brahma darshan) and the vision of the Self (Atma darshan)?

Dadashri: There is a big difference, between the vision of the Self (Atma darshan) and the vision of God (Brahma darshan). You will have to go beyond the vision of God. When your internal intent (bhaav) transcends the past, present and future time (trikaadi); it is called the vision of God; trikaadi. And the Atma is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) anyways; if a person ever attains the fundamental nature (swaroop) of the Self, he truly is the Absolute Self. Even God (Brahma) becomes Absolute God (Parabrahma), for he has come into trikaadi bhaav (continuous intent).

First Comes Brahmanishtha, Then Atmanishtha!

There is even a difference, between the knowledge of God (Brahmagnan) and the Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan).

The knowledge of God(Brahmagnan) is the gateway to the Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan). The Knowledge of the Self occurs after one enters the Knowledge of God.

Questioner: What is the difference between the two?

Dadashri: When the knowledge of God occurs, it is the result of utilizing sadhan (tools: scripture, worship, gurus, penance etc.), in order to bring about focused concentration (ekagrata) of one’s own swaroop (the Self). But what is the Self (swaroop)? That awareness has not attained. Awareness of the Self happens only upon the attainment of Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan). It is considered knowledge of God (Brahmagnan) from the time one has knowledge of the non-Self (abrahma). What other knowledge (gnan) remains, after one has knowledge of the non-Self? The answer is Brahmagnan. Brahmagnan occurs when faith and devotion (nishtha) with the worldly life (sansar) leaves, after which, the devotion (nishtha) to God (Brahma) sets in. What do people have faith and devotion to at the moment? It is only for worldly happiness; their faith and devotion (nishtha) is with the pleasures of the five senses.

If a person’s devotion changes, so that he no longer finds happiness (sukh) in worldly things, and he feels that the material (bhautik) happiness is not good, and that happiness only lies just in the Atma; happiness is only in God; when he decides this, it is then that he becomes Brahmanishtha (faith; devotion established in God). From the time faith is established in God, from that point onwards, it is considered knowledge of God (Brahmagnan), and one is considered to be the form of God (Brahma swaroop). And then, when Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan) occurs, one is considered an Atmanishtha Purush (a person devoted to the Atma); he is considered Bhagwan (God; Lord). He is called Sakal Parmatma – Absolute Self from all aspects.

There is never any intellect (buddhi) in the person who is devoted to the Atma (Atmanishtha). Only after the intellect has gone, does this light (of the Self) arise. The intellect is present in the person who is devoted to God (Brahmanishtha); therefore, he does not have this light.

Brahma Is Even Beyond Words

Questioner: There is also the word ‘shabda brahma’, is it not!

Dadashri: But the word shabda brahma means that it creates a ringing sound in the ears. What benefit do you get out of it? That is why one needs an exact Brahma. There are so many brahmas like that. Shabda brahma, naad-brahma! But you need the real Atma; which is incomprehensible (agamya), cannot be put down in the scriptures (shastras), is indescribable (avarniya), and inexpressible ( avaktavya)! Where words cannot reach, where even vision cannot reach – is where the Atma is. And it resides in a state that is pristine and untainted (nirlep bhaav); it remains only in a state of detachment. And word (shabda) and sound (naad); are all “stations”. It is not that important. It does not mean that you have attained that Atma. The Atma is something that once attained, does not go away – that is called Atma. Not even for a second does it move away – that is called Atma.

Questioner: When can you hear naad brahma (sound of brahma)?

Dadashri: You can hear the sound of brahma, when you stop listening to everything else. When your ears do not listen to anything else, then you can here the sound of brahma. But you also have so many desires to listen to all kinds of other things. You want to know this, and you want to know that; you want to listen to this and you want to listen to that! If someone starts talking about something useless, you immediately ask, ‘What happened?’ You can easily hearthe sound of brahma (naad brahma), once all these desires come to an end. It is a natural quality. Nevertheless, eventhe naad brahma is not the Atma. It is a kind of a musical sound; a tool to bring about concentration (ekagrata). The Atma goes far beyond that.

Questioner: Does the stage of hearing the sound of brahma (naad brahma) have any connection with spiritual development?

Dadashri: Yes, of course it does! You need focused concentration (ekagrata) for spiritual progress, and focused concentration comes out of that. A very good concentration arises in naad brahma. Spirituality begins only when ekagrata happens, otherwise spirituality will not begin, will it? But the Atma is way far away from that.

Questioner: Shabda brahma is there. Everyone talks in different ways about this word, but the inner explosion (exact understanding) of the word should happen.

Dadashri: The impact has occurred. A person already comprehends the word (shabda). If it is true, if the One who can grant this experience, then the word has truly made an impact. Any words that do not give you the experience are all wrong. And when even words are no longer there, that is the ultimate state: absolutely independent (niralumb)! There are no words there. However, first one attains in the form of a ‘word’ and thereafter one becomes niralumb.

Praise to Such a Vision!

Questioner: When one attains the state of God (Brahma), then everyone appears as one to him. A woman is not seen as a woman, a man is not seen as a man; he sees everyone as God.

Dadashri: Everything he sees only appears pure (shuddha). I will tell you what ‘we’ see. What is ‘our’ awareness (jagruti) like? Complete awareness! What kind of awareness (jagruti) do these people have? They do everything in a state of unconsciousness: ‘I am this lady’s husband, I am his father-

in-law, I am her uncle, I am his employee’. Do they not say that? These are all signs of illusion. One is not even aware of his own powers or of his own Self.

‘We’ see the Self in everything (Brahmamaya). ‘Our’ awareness (jagruti) is: What would I see in my first vision, when I see a man and woman? They are not clothed; they are naked. In the second vision, they appear as though their skin has been removed. And what do I see in the third vision? I see all the entrails (flesh, bone and intestines), “exact”, like you would in an X-ray. Therefore, ‘we’ do not feel any attachment or abhorrence (raag- dwesh), and then ultimately they continue to be ‘seen’ as the Self (Brahma swaroop).

Questioner: What is the difference between ego (ahamkar) and‘I am Brahma’ (Aham Brahmasmi)?

Dadashri: In ‘Aham Brahmasmi’, one is exercising one’s own ego. And ego (ahamkar) is to attribute one’s own self, where one is not.

The Self Is Attained at the Feet of the Gnani Purush

Questioner: I need something that would turn my inner tendencies (antar vrutti) towards the Self (swa swaroop).

Dadashri: Do you know what we consider one’s own Self (swaroop; one’s own form)?

Questioner: It is to witness (sakshibhaav).

Dadashri: Witnessing, but what is it like?

Questioner: Everything happens under its light.

Dadashri: But you have to know it. You can know Brahma if you attain the knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan). Otherwise how will you know God ( Brahma)? Have you attained Atmagnan?

Questioner: That is something beyond my intellect (buddhi).

Dadashri: You are talking about witnessing (sakshibhaav), but by coming to the Gnani Purush, you will attain the Self (swa swaroop) right here.

Change of Vision Leads to the Experience of One’s Changed State

Questioner: Are the words Atma-Parmatma, Brahma-Parabrahma all the same words, or do they express different phases of the same thing ( paryayvaachak)?

Dadashri: They are all synonymous words. Paryaya means phases or state (avastha). In certain state (avastha), the Atma, is considered Atma, and in certain state (avastha), the same Atma is considered the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), and the same Atma in some state (avastha), is considered mudhatma (unaware of the Self). Mudhatma means an externalized (bahirmukhi) Atma, but even that is the same Atma. What you call the inner awakened Soul (antaratma); even that is the very same Atma. And what you refer to as the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), is also the same Atma! Therefore, they are only the different states (dasha) of the Atma!

It is like the lawyer, who initially does not make money, he is in a bad situation, and so people will say, ‘this attorney is not making any money, he is poor.’ And when the very same lawyer suddenly has a turn of fortune and starts earning lots of money, they will say, ‘He is a very clever lawyer, he is a rich man.’ And when the same lawyer loses all his money, they will say, ‘He is bankrupt.’ But in essence, he himself is the same!

That is how the states of the Atma are. As long as it desires the pleasures of the worldly life (sansar), it is considered mudhatma; it is called bahirmukhi atma – turned towards the worldly life.

Questioner: And if the veil of ignorance (avaran) is lifted, then does it become the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)?

Dadashri: But the veil (avaran) will not lift on its own! First one’s vision (drashti) changes. What is the vision like right now? Your vision is on this side; therefore, you only see what is on this side. Is your vision (drashti) not just, ‘I am Chandubhai’? Or do you have some other vision ( drashti)?

Questioner: I am Atma too!

Dadashri: No, but right now, you accept letters under the name of Chandubhai, do you not? If someone were to swear at you, right now, would it affect you?

Questioner: Yes, it would.

Dadashri: If you were the Atma, then it would not affect you. Therefore, you are Chandubhai. Now there is nothing wrong in saying ‘I am Chandubhai’, even I agree that, ‘I am A. M. Patel.’ However, I do not have the belief, that ‘I am A. M. Patel.’ You though, have the belief, ‘I am Chandubhai.’

A man was telling me, ‘Only the Vedanta has said that jiva and Brahma are one only. No one else knows that.’ I told him, ‘Everyone knows that jiva and Brahma are one for sure.’ Do the elderly not say, ‘I am going to die. I will die, doctor. Save me?’ When they think that they are dying, they are jiva. Those who fear death, are all jiva. And when they no longer have fear of dying, it means that the same living being (jiva) has become God (Brahma)!

One Is Shiva, but Because of Illusion, One Is Jiva

Questioner: Why did God (Brahma) have to become a jiva (the self)?

Dadashri: You are truly the Atma (Shiva; Self)! But you have become convinced that ‘I am not the Atma (Shiva)’, you have become deluded.

‘I am Chandubhai’; that is what you believe. Just because they gave you that name, does it mean you have to believe it? You truly are the Atma ( Shiva), but only if you understand the difference between an embodied self (the non-Self; mortal; jiva) and the Self (immortal; Shiva )!

Questioner: Then does it not become non-dualism (adwaita)?

Dadashri: When there is no longer a difference between jiva and Shiva, then it becomes non-dualism (adwaita). When a jiva (embodied self) and Shiva (Self) appear as one form, it is non-dualism (adwaita)! And when the jiva is separate, and Shiva is separate, it is illusion (bhranti)!

Questioner: But the Atma was Shiva, so how did it become a living being (jiva)?

Dadashri: It is because of wrong belief. Due to a wrong belief it has become a jiva. The Gnani Purush “fractures” (destroys) these “wrong beliefs” and installs the right belief, so that one oneself becomes the Atma (the Self) again; one becomes the form of the Self ( Shiva swaroop).

It does not take long for a mortal (jiva) to become the Atma (Shiva; immortal). You yourself are the Atma (Shiva)! But because this illusion (bhranti) has set in, all the wrong beliefs have settled within you. When this wrong belief changes, and the right belief is established, the puzzle will be solved.

Only the Expert Can Cause the Separation

Questioner: But what is the difference in the definitions of these three: the material world, the self and the Atma (bhautik jagat, jiva and the Self)?Why are they different?

Dadashri: The jiva (the self), is itself the material world (bhautik jagat). So there is no need for you to know the material world. Where does the difference occur? You tell me.

Questioner: As living (jiva) and non-living (ajiva).

Dadashri: But the jiva itself is worldly (bhautik). Why is it called an embodied soul (jivatma)? It is because, its vision (drashti) is directed towards the material (bhautik) world, and it only dwells in the material world, which is why it is called an embodied soul (jivatma ). It is immersed in, and basks in the happiness and pleasures (sukh) of the material life; it is called an embodied soul (jivatma). And it is that, which we call the material world (bhautik jagat). Because as long as it is worldly (bhautik); its dwelling will always be in the worldly realm. Do you understand this? If you want separation, if you want to separate them, I will do that for you. Nevertheless, this material world is itself the embodied soul (jivatma). That from which it (jiva) seeks temporary happiness, and from which it seeks relative happiness, is just a material world. Where it seeks from is also the material world (bhautik jagat), and the seeker itself is the material world. If one understands this, his work will be done.

Questioner: Jiva comes within the body, Atma comes within the body, and also the material world (bhautik jagat) comes into the body; a mixture of all the three is in it.

Dadashri: It includes everything. The entire universe has come into the body, nothing is left out.

Questioner: So how are we to understand them separately? How can I separate them and then understand them?

Dadashri: To separate them, you have to become a scientist. In this ring, there is a combination of gold, copper, and two or three other metals, and as they have become mixed, how would you separate them? Can any ordinary person separate them? Only the person, who is skilled at it, can separate them. Only an expert, who knows how to separate them, can do this.

No one else will be able to do it! Besides, if you meddle in it yourself, your efforts of endless lifetimes will be futile; moreover, you will just die of drinking medicine that was intended for topical use only. How is it God’s fault if you drink medicine that was only made for external use (rubbing ointment)?

Jiva and Atma: Neither Separate Nor Connected

Questioner: What is the difference between the jiva and the Atma?

Dadashri: As long as it is in a worldly (sansar) state, it lives and dies, and until then, it is called jiva. A worldly state means that, ‘I am a sansari (I am living this worldly life)’. And when one believes the worldly state (sansar dasha) is his own state; he therefore, lives and dies, and so he is called jiva! And from the time that the living and dying ends, one is considered Shiva (God; Atma), and one is called the pure Soul (Shuddhatma). The jiva is always immersed in the world (sansari); it has karma, while the Atma does not have karma.

Questioner: So then, the jiva and the Atma are separate, are they not?

Dadashri: The jiva and Atma? No. The same Atma, but if it is with karma, then it is called a jiva, and if it is without karma, then it is called Atma. When it is with karma, it lives and dies; that is jiva.

Questioner: And Atma is eternal (amar), is it not?

Dadashri: Yes, it is eternal.

Questioner: And jiva is attached to it?

Dadashri: No, it is not attached to it. It is like this: there is the embodied soul (jivatma), the Atma, and the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). Jivatma is the state of the atma with karma and it is also with ego. The one with the belief, ‘I am this body (dehadhyas)’, is considered jivatma and the one who has no ego and does not live or die, that it the Atma.

Questioner: So, where is the stage of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)?

Dadashri: The Absolute Soul is when one attains the awareness of one’s own Self (swaroop), and therefore one becomes the form of the Atma ( Atmaroop). Then, the state of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) continues to manifest. And once it has manifested fully, that is when he has become the Absolute Soul. Therefore, when the thirteenth gunthanu (or gunasthanak described as a set of fourteen steps in the spiritual development of the Self) ends, then Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan) happens, and one has become complete Parmatma (Absolute Soul).

So this embodied soul (jiva) is the Atma’s own state (avastha), but it is an illusory state, and why is it called jiva? Whatever undergoes the states (avastha) of living and dying, is referred to as jiva. And the Atma is by nature pure Self ( shuddha chetan), it is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) itself. But that awareness should happen. As long as one does not have this awareness, one does not even know that ‘I am Atma’. One still has the awareness of, ‘I am jiva’. It is in the illusory state of the self (jiva, atma), that there is the belief of ‘I am’, that ‘I am living, I will die.’

Do you understand this? The jiva and the Atma, are neither one and nor are they separate. When you say ‘separate’, then it becomes a separate part, it is not like that. When you say they are one, it creates impurity in the Atma, and it would mean that the Atma is tainted with illusion (bhranti); however even that has not happened. That is because one has never become the Atma. This is just an illusory state of the Atma that has arisen, and that is the jiva.

Therefore, the jiva and the Atma, are indeed one thing. When she is cooking, she is considered a cook, and when she goes out dancing, she is considered a dancer. But the woman is one and the same.

‘I’, ‘Bavo’, ‘Mangaldas’

When someone comes to our door, we would ask, ‘Who is there?’ And he would say, ‘I have come.’ Then you would ask, ‘I, but who? Speak up!’ He will reply, ‘I am the mendicant (bavo – beggar monk)’, so you ask, ‘Which mendicant?’ And he would say, ‘It is I, the beggar monk (bavo) Mangaldas!’ Then, you would recognize him. Otherwise, if he just said I, no one would recognize him. If he said “I, the beggar monk (bavo)”, even then you would wonder, ‘Was it this beggar monk (bavo) or the other one?’ Therefore when he says all three – I, the beggar monk (bavo), Mangaldas – then you would recognize, that it is indeed that Mangaldas (bavo). You even visualize him. So then you open the door. And if there happens to be two or three Mangaldas (individuals), he has to tell you, ‘I am the bavo Mangaldas of Mahadevji (Lord Shiva’s follower).’ That is when you recognize him. Therefore, ‘I’, ‘bavo’, ‘Mangaldas’. Now tell me, how many people are there? And in all this, who is the ‘I’? Who is the bavo? Who is Mangaldas? Have you not heard that before? But it was not useful to you. And when I heard it,? it became instantly useful to me. Each and every sentence I hear is useful to me. Even if I found it in the streets it would still help me.

So you will have to know who the ‘I’ is, will you not? And do you not have to become convinced about who the ‘I’ is? In the same way, the ‘I’ here is the Atma, and if you know (realize) the ‘I’, you will end up with a solution.

Only That Awareness Is Needed

Questioner: So one only becomes the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) from the Atma?

Dadashri: The Atma is itself the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). One only has to realize this. When you realize that, even for a single minute, you have the realization of, ‘I am the Absolute Soul’, and then you start to become the Absolute Soul.

Questioner: So can we say, ‘I am the Absolute Soul’?

Dadashri: If you say, ‘I am the Absolute Soul’, people will rebuke you, swear at you and ridicule you. And when they do not ridicule you, and they do not swear at you, then you can say, ‘I am the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)’. If you take an artificial mango, will you get any juice out of it? No, it will not come out! You understand that, do you not? That is why you are indeed the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). But you have not become the Absolute Soul. You have not realized that state (swaroop). At the moment, your awareness is, ‘I am Chandubhai’. You should have the awareness of, ‘I am the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma)’. So now, can you say, ‘I am Parmatma’?

Questioner: No, I cannot say that.

Dadashri: Yes, otherwise people will ridicule you. These people will even make fun of something that is true, or someone who is right. This is the world. You cannot grapple with it.

Now are you convinced that you are Atma? What have you experienced from, ‘you are Atma’? How did you become convinced?

Questioner: That at least I am certain that there is Atma within.

Dadashri: But what makes you so sure? Is there not some sort of thermometer you can put in place, that immediately tells you that there is an Atma inside? Is there such a thermometer?

Questioner: When a man dies, his hands become useless, everything is useless.

Dadashri: It is the embodied soul (jivatma; mortal) that dies. Have you known your Atma in all this? Do you have the experience of ‘I am Atma’?

Questioner: I say that I do have the experience of the Atma, and you say that I do not have the experience. So you tell me, what do I have experience of?

Dadashri: What it is, is that right now, you are experiencing the embodied soul (jivatma). However, that is not the original, fundamental (muda) Atma. The original Atma is chetan (Self; living), and the embodied soul (jivatma) is living-non-living (nischetan-chetan ).The entire world perceives the living-non-living (nischetan-chetan) as living (Self; chetan), which is why it is perplexed. Living-non-living (nischetan-chetan), means that its characteristics resemble those of chetan (Self), it appears to have movement.But it is not chetan (living).

After Atmagnan, One Is Immortal

Questioner: People say that a man dies because the soul (jiva) has left his body. So are the embodied soul (jiva)and the Atma (Soul) here, the same or are they different? And if they are just one, then in what state is it called embodied soul (jiva)? In what state is it called Atma?

Dadashri: That which lives and dies, is called a jiva (embodied soul), and that which neither lives nor dies, is Atma. Embodies soul (jiva) is just a temporary adjustment; it is just a state (avastha).

Questioner: Until they attain final liberation (moksha), does the embodied soul (jiva) and the Atma go from one body into another?

Dadashri: It is not the embodied soul (jivatma) alone; everything else goes along with it. Karma and everything else go with it. Until it finds freedom, and becomes free of karma, everything tags along with it, wherever it goes. Even all the

karmas one has created, will remain with the embodied soul (jivatma).

All one has to do, is realize, ‘Who am I?’ That is all you have to know. You are jiva (embodied soul) and you are living; therefore you will die. And if you are Atma, you are immortal. Living is a state (avastha), and whatever lives and dies, is called a living being (jiva). The living being is in the state (avastha) of worldly life (sansar). Bad deeds (paap) and good deeds (punya), are all included in it, as well as all the things related to the body (paudgalik), and together with karma; that is called jiva.

Questioner: So what would you call the mind (mun)?

Dadashri: The mind is where thoughts occur. That is called the mind. The mind-intellect-chit-ego (mun-buddhi-chit-ahamkar), comprise the internal functioning mechanism (antahkaran) in every human being. And the jiva is the head (upari) of all these. The self is verily the jiva, and the Atma is something different. The Atma is different from the embodied soul (jiva). The jiva is the one that lives and dies. The Atma does not die. The Atma is immortal, and it is indeed your very own form (swaroop)!

Questioner: So can you say that the embodied soul (jiva) is the non-Self complex (pudgal)?

Dadashri: Yes, you can certainly say that the jiva is the non-Self complex. But to us, it appears to be living. It moves, it talks, and it does everything. But in fact it is pudgal. The jiva is just a statue that has come alive!

The Separation Disappears When Illusion Leaves

Questioner: How can you call the living being (jiva), the Absolute God (Parmeshwar)? The living being is a delusion of one kind.

Dadashri: Through the intellect that differentiates (bhed buddhi ), it is called a living being (jiva). It is this bhed buddhi which says that, ‘I am separate and God is separate’, and that is when you can say it is a living being (jiva). And when the intellect (buddhi) stops seeing differences and there is the oneness (becomes abheda) that, ‘I am the Bhagwan (Lord; God)’, it then becomes enlightened intellect (Shiva buddhi).

Questioner: With the vision (drashti) ‘I am Atma’, is there not a separation of the Atma in that?

Dadashri: When you have the awareness of ‘I am Atma’, then the separation between jiva and Shiva has been broken.

Questioner: That is right, but what is the difference between jiva and Parmeshwar (the Absolute God)?

Dadashri: The living being (jiva) asks for enjoyment from impermanent and perishable (vinashi) things, and its faith and belief (shraddha) lies in the temporary things. The Absolute Self (Parmeshwar) only has faith and belief in the permanent and indestructible (avinashi), and the Absolute Self (Parmeshwar) only believes in its own state. The Absolute Self believes only in its own eternal state. It has no value for the things that are destructible and impermanent (vinashi). That is the only difference. Jiva (living entity) means that it is itself immersed in illusion (bhranti), and when that illusion leaves, the delirium and obsession (murchha) over impermanent (vinashi) things will disappear, and it itself becomes the Absolute Self (Parmeshwar)!

To become devoid of attachment and abhorrence (vitarag), first your artadhyan (adverse internal meditation that hurts the self), and raudradhyan (adverse internal meditation that hurts the self and others) must stop altogether. When artadhyan and raudradhyan both stop, you will no longer have worries, and in spite of living in the worldly life (sansar), even then you will not have worries. If you still have worries, then what good is that? Lord Mahavir’s principle doctrine (siddhant – incontrovertible principle that accomplishes the ultimate) is this straightforward, provided that the Gnani is there. And if there is no Gnani around, then even with thousands of efforts, you will not attain even a fraction of the Lord’s siddhant.

Keeping Separation of I-You With God Does Not Lead to Self-Realization

Therefore, it is a good thing, to do the Lord’s worship (bhakti). From that, you will receive worldly happiness (bhautik sukh) and find the path ahead! You progress on a spiritual path, find the company of good people, and you even find satsang (spiritual company). But you will not find the experience of the Self (anubhuti) over there. The experience of the Self only occurs, when the differentiating intellect (bhed buddhi) which separates embodies soul and Atma (jiva-Shiva), comes to an end. And that is when you can call it experience of the Self ( anubhuti).

Did you like anything that I have told you about the embodied soul (worldly being) and Atma differentiating intellect (jiva-Shiva bhed buddhi)? Only then can you call it the experience of the Self (anubhuti)! Otherwise, is the experience of the Self that you believe in, not all wrong? People have hung on to so many of these experiences of the Self, which they have even picked up from the Friday weekly market. They buy goods that others have discarded and that are now being sold! That is why the differentiating intellect (bhed buddhi) that separates the self (jiva ; living being) and Atma (Shiva) has to go. That is why Akha Bhagat (17th century Gujarati spiritual poet) had said:

“Jo tu Jiva toh karta Hari ; jo tu Shiva toh vastu khari”

“If you are a living being (jiva), then God (Hari) is the doer. If you are Atma (Shiva); then that is the real thing.”

Is it not true what Akho says? So therefore, once this living being and Atma differentiating intellect (jiva-Shiva bhed buddhi) leaves, you are the pure Soul (Shuddhatma), and after that, you alone are the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)! They say, ‘God is separate, and I am separate’. However, when one comes to understand the differentiating intellect (bhed buddhi) that separates living being and Atma (jiva-Shiva),and thatthere is no difference between the two, he will become free!

You will have to understand this someday, will you not? Besides, will you not eventually have to understand the Atma? When one knows the Atma , the differentiating intellect that separates the jiva and the Atma, disappears and once the differentiating intellect (bhed buddhi) that separates living being and Atma (jiva-Shiva) breaks, the fear breaks, and a state of detachment from attachment and abhorrence (vitaragata) prevails.

If they go on saying that God is separate and I am separate, then when will it ever end? Has it not been this way for infinite lifetimes? Then you and ‘I’ are there anyways! They have been chanting ‘Thou art, Thou art’ for countless lifetimes.

You yourself are the owner of this world! But this entire ownership has been lost! What is all this?! That is why one needs to realize that, ‘I amShiva (Atma)’ and that is called the experience of the Self (anubhuti). When you have attained the awareness of, ‘I am Shuddhatma (the pure Soul)’, that is when you can call it the experience of the Self (anubhuti)! Besides, every living being (jiva) has the awareness of ‘I am living being (jiva)’.

…But the Path Is Indeed the Same

Questioner: Can the separation between living being (jiva) and Atma (Shiva) be broken through any other body, besides the human body?

Dadashri: No. It cannot be done through any other body.

Questioner: Can penance be done through the subtle body (sookshma deha)?

Dadashri: Penance? To know this? No. Penance cannot eliminate the separation. Even that cannot do it.

Questioner: Are there any subtle rituals for destroying this separation? Can one know it through the subtle body?

Dadashri: The Gnani Purush himself can do all the things for further progress. For the Gnani Purush, the living being-Atma ( jiva-Shiva) separation is already gone. And if he wants to know even more than that, he can know everything through other subtle means. Someone who practices penance (tapa) however, cannot know anything.

Questioner: But is it possible to remove the separation between embodied soul and Atma (jiva-Shiva) through the subtle body?

Dadashri: No. One removes it, but it is only according to one’s belief. The “psychological” will not do! It has to be methodically done through Gnan (Knowledge), and it has to be the proper way. But the path is the same, whether you call it Vedanta, Jainism or anything else. It is only one kind of knowledge.

Questioner: So the embodies soul and Atma (jiva-Shiva) separation can only be broken in the human form?

Dadashri: This cannot happen in any other life-form, other than the human life-form.

Questioner: In the celestial realm (deva gati)?

Dadashri: No. Even there, nothing can happen. It is not possible in the celestial realm. The most that those in the celestial realm do, is while living there, if they wish to do a visit to do darshan, they can come here. So those in the celestial realm (deva gati) can come here to do darshan.

Questioner: Can anyone who is in a videhi (one who has attained the Self despite having a physical body) state, break the separation of living being and Atma (jiva-Shiva)?

Dadashri: Videhi ? Videhi has become the Atma (Shiva) himself! One whose living being-Atma (jiva-Shiva) separation is gone, and moreover, who has become the embodiment of the Atma (Shiva swaroop), is called videhi. For us, it was King Janak who became one.

Doing-Suffering Is the State of the Jiva

It is a living being’s ignorant belief that ‘I am going to die’. So the living being (jiva) lives as long as it is there; otherwise it dies. The condition or state (avastha) of living and dying is called a living being (jiva). The never-born and immortal (ajanma amar), is called the Atma; it is called Shiva. The pure Soul (Shuddhatma) is Shiva. When one understands, ‘I am Shiva’, one attains salvation!

As long as one’s awareness is that of, ‘I am doing, I am suffering’, one is a living being (jiva). The living being (jiva) is a doer-sufferer (karta- bhokta). And when the awareness of, ‘I am the non-doer and the non-sufferer (akarta-abhokta)’, becomes established in his belief (shraddha), one becomes Atma. Once it becomes established into his conviction (pratiti), he has become Atma. And after that, whether it manifests or not, is a different matter. That is because its manifestation (rupak) will come later.

Questioner: I did not understand which condition or state (avastha) of the living being (jiva) you were referring to?

Dadashri: Doing-suffering (karta-bhokta) is the condition or state (avastha) of the living being (jiva)! ‘I am doing this, I am suffering this’; that is the living being’s condition. ‘I am suffering this’, is a temporary (vinashi) state. Does one not say, ‘I will die’? He may even say, ‘I am still going to live another fifteen years’. They say that, do they not?

Questioner: Yes, they say that.

Dadashri: That is the living being (jiva).

Questioner: Is the living being itself the doer?

Dadashri: Its awareness is that, ‘I am the doer, I am the sufferer.’ It is soul (jiva) that desires to live, and that does not desire to die. The Atma is the non-doer and the non-sufferer.

Did you understand the self and the Self (jiva-Shiva) difference?

When Does the Contradictory Worldly Life End?

That is why it has been said:

“Jo tu Jiva toh karta Hari;

Jo tu Shiva, toh vastu khari”

“If you are a living being (jiva), then God (Hari) is the doer. If you are Atma (Shiva); then that is the real thing.”

If you become the Shiva, then there is nothing else left; there is no one superior to you (upari). As long as you are a living being ( jiva) however, you like all the worldly (bhautik) pleasures and you like all your relatives. ‘Here comes my daughter’s father-in-law.’ Even when his daughter’s father-in-law comes, he loses himself. Whatever one becomes lost in; that is what one becomes. When the daughter’s father-in-law comes, he even gets lost in the daughter’s father-in-law. That is what our people are like!

Then it says:

“karta meetey toh chhootey karma;

aey chhey mahabhajan no marma”

“One becomes free from the bondage of karma when the doer is gone – this is the essence of the ultimate devotional offering of liberation.”

What is the essence of the mahabhajan? If you do not become free of karma, then karma is subject to doer, the doer is subject to karma; karma is subject to doer; doer is subject to karma. Is that not a wheel? Causes and effects, effects and causes, causes and effects, effects and causes. And in it, they all teach you doership, and make you a doer: ‘Relinquish that; Do good.’ On one hand, they want to get rid of their karma, while on the other hand, they want to do this.

Questioner: Contradictory.

Dadashri: Yes, and therefore, this train will never reach Kashi (holy place of salvation for Hindus). For countless lifetimes, their trains have not reached there. Hey! Who knows whereabouts it may be idling, but no one’s train ever reaches Kashi. I am giving you a passport for Kashi! The passport alone will take you to Kashi. The wheels of the train will not take you, but this passport will. That is because your doership will go away. Will there be anything else left in the world after that?

Only The Gnani Can Free You from Wrong Beliefs

Questioner: I believe that it is the living being (jiva) that makes us do all this.

Dadashri: But who is the doer? If it is the living being (jiva) that makes you do this, then who is the doer? In fact, it is not even the living being that is making you do it.

Questioner: No, it is the living being that makes you do it.

Dadashri: It appears to you that the jiva is the one that makes you do it.

Questioner: That is why I feel that you have to take control of the jiva first, before you can move forward.

Dadashri: Oh, the living being does not make you do anything, the poor thing! The jiva does not even have the capability to go to the toilet. It is when one becomes constipated, that one will realize it is not in his power (shakti). Only when the doctor gives him something for it, he will be able to go to the toilet.

Questioner: But does it not tell you to go to the toilet from within, so you go to the toilet?

Dadashri: That is true. The urging only comes from within. However, the living being (jiva) does not have its own power (satta) to go to the toilet. The jiva functions through another power. It is not even the Atma’s power. It is true though, that it does tell you from within. What does it mean to tell you? When the urging starts from within, the mind immediately tells the sense organs (indriya) what it wants to do. And so all the sense organs get ready. Thus everything works through the internal urging or energy of command (prerana shakti).

Questioner: But is it not true, that you will only be able to move ahead, if you take control of the jiva?

Dadashri: Try taking control of the jiva! You do not even have the energy (shakti) to go to the toilet. You do not have the energy (shakti) to live, and you do not have the energy to die. If one did have the energy to die, then one would never die. But there is no energy of the sort.

Questioner: Who has that energy?

Dadashri: It is that very energy (shakti) that I am showing you, and it is through this energy, that this world runs.

Questioner: We call that the energy of God.

Dadashri: Yes, the world calls it God. But that energy is an inanimate energy (jada shakti). It is an inanimate energy, which is why we do not call it God. People of the world do not understand that, do they? And that is why they believe that it is God. Who, other than God, does that? But it is another energy (shakti) that does it. That is what I am going to show you!

Questioner: I also believed that a living being (jiva) is something which has all the coverings (avaran). And as the coverings continue to break away, then from the embodied soul (jivatma), it becomes Atma.

Dadashri: This is what so many people believe; that you should call it an embodied soul (jiva), if it has layers of karma (avaran) over it, and that if it does not have the coverings (niravaran), you can call it Atma. But what am I trying to tell you? That despite having the coverings (avaran), the Atma is still attainable; therefore is this not something new!

Questioner: This is something new. Otherwise we have been led to understand it as: whenever the water in the ocean is turned into waves, by the wind, it is the waves that are the Atma, and the ocean is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma).

Dadashri: You can call all that a confusion caused by the ego (vikalp). Mad misconception (vikalp)! Yes, you can say that the one with coverings ( avaran) is the living being (jiva), and the one without the coverings (niravaran) you should call Atma. We can put up with such a misconception (vikalp). But any other projected beliefs (vikalp) like these, are useless. The Atma is not something you can know. Rarely is there ever – even in a thousand or so years – one who has known the Atma (Atmagnani), and there may only be one, but no one else; that is how unique it is. Unique means something you cannot compete with (binharif).

So Many Consequences of the Illusion

Questioner: Living being (Jiva) is Atma (Shiva) and the Atma is itself the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), then why do people kill each other, murder, and hurt one another?

Dadashri: That is a fight between the non-Self complexes (prakrutis); it is not a fight between Atmas. The prakruti fights. It is just like puppets fighting. As long as illusion (bhranti) exists it will be, ‘My son’s son (grandson) has died’. But oh! The Atma has stayed as it is. However when the packing (khokha) dies, they grieve intensely! ‘He was my son’s only child!’ He cries as if he himself is going to die!

One Element: Many States

There are infinite Atmas, and they are all worthy of becoming God, but for now, they are in a state of mudhatma (unaware of the Self), which is bahirmukhi atma (externalized vision of the self).

A soul whose vision is directed towards the external(bahirmukhi atma) itself means that it is unaware of the Self (mudhatma). Vision, that is directed towards the external (bahirmukhi) means that one looks for happiness in temporary things; ‘this is mine, this will give me happiness (sukh), this is how I will be happy’, and he wanders for infinite lifetimes; but nothing gives him happiness. And so he becomes weary. Even then he will say that ‘this will bring happiness’. But there are so many things like that, infinite things, where one pushes one thing aside and picks up another, moves this one and then another! As he continues to do that, the time is passing, and happiness is nowhere to be found.

All worldly pleasures are temporary, and they are imagined (kalpit); they are not real happiness. Imagined (kalpit) means that you may like rice-pudding, while someone else dislikes it. Does that not ever happen?

Questioner: Yes, it does.

Dadashri: Then everyone likes real happiness (sukh). Happiness that is eternal and true, is something that everyone likes. This is imaginary happiness ( kalpit sukh). Everyone’s is different. These Hindus eat vegetarian food, while Muslims prefer the other. So everyone has different imaginings and notions (kalpit). This means that as long as one desires enjoyment of imaginary pleasures, as long as one has passion for it, one lives as an embodied soul (jivatma). Until then, one is considered an embodied soul (jivatma). When one meets the Gnani Purush, he becomes antaratma (inner awakened Self; the interim state Soul beginning with the conviction of ‘I am pure Soul’ ending with absolute experience). And here, to become this inner awakened Soul (antaratma; interim state of the Self), even a Self-realized person (sat purush) will not do. A Self-realized person can help you move forward. Once he has become the interim state Soul (antaratma),his desire forworldly happiness and material pleasure (bhautik sukh) dissipates, and his desire turns toward attaining the happiness (sukh) of his Atma; the eternal happiness. And when the Gnani Purush lets him taste a little bit of this happiness, he no longer relishes the other happiness. Just like the tea you drink in the morning. But while drinking this tea, if someone puts a plate of jalebi (crispy fritters soaked in sweet syrup) in front of you, what would you choose? What would you take first? Would you eat the jalebi, or would you drink the tea?

Questioner: Tea.

Dadashri: You drink the tea first. Why? This is because if you eat the jalebi, the tea will taste bland. You will blame your wife for that; why does the tea have no sugar in it? It is because of the jalebi that it tastes bland. That is what happens when you taste the Atma’s happiness (sukh ); all theworldly happiness and pleasures (bhautik sukh), become insipid, so that you lose interest in it, you do not enjoy it; nevertheless you have to endure it, although you dislike it. That is when you attain the interim state between the embodied soul (jivatma) and the pure Soul ( Shuddhatma) – the antaratma.

So, as long as he wants worldly pleasures, one is a soul whose vision is directed externally (bahirmukhi atma). And when he realizes his own Self (swaroop) that, ‘I am not this; I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma), I am immortal and I do not want anything in the worldly life ( sansar)’, is when his state becomes the interim state of the Soul (antaratma). The state of antaratma does two things: one is for worldly (bhautik) happiness; one has to do work for worldly interaction (vyavahar).

At times, one’s applied awareness (upayog) is drawn towards that direction. But when one has to do his own work, his awareness is on this side. And so one possesses two types of applied awareness (upayog). There is just one applied awareness; however at whatever time, according to the particular circumstances that come together, one’s applied awareness (upayog) is given to that side. And if these circumstances come along, one gives applied awareness to this. Antaratma dasha means the stage of interim government. Then gradually as he goes on to settle his external worldly life ( sansar), the state of this interim government (antaratma) develops into full government.

Now, what else do you want to ask?

Questioner: That is exactly what I am trying to confirm, whether the embodied soul (jivatma), the interim state Soul (antaratma) and the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma), are three different names for the same thing?

Dadashri: They are three adjectives for just one thing. At home a man is considered the boy’s father. When you go to his shop, he is known as the boss (sheth ). And in court, he is known as a lawyer; ‘hey, why do you say that when he is the same father, the same boss, and the same lawyer?’ So the answer is: that he has an adjective according to each type of work he has to perform. It is all determined by the types of circumstances that come together for him; when he comes across the shop, he is considered the boss, and when he is pleading a case in the courtroom, he is considered a lawyer. That is how it all is.

So when they say embodied soul (jivatma) and Atma, it is all the same thing. Just like everyone calls you professor, but what about the children at home?

Questioner: They call me papa.

Dadashri: Yes. And he is professor at the college. In the same way, depending on whichever type of work you are doing, the adjectives have been given according to that. Just as you are one and the same person, but in one place you are papa, and in another you are professor. So even in this, an adjective has been ascribed according to the work being done.

One is an embodied soul (jivatma), as long as he believes that there is happiness (sukh) only in transient and perishable (vinashi) things. And when that belief comes to an end, and the belief that happiness lies only in the eternal, one has become the interim state Soul ( antaratma). He that has become devoid of attachment and abhorrence (vitarag); that has no attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh) towards anyone, is considered the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). So who is the interim state of the Soul (antaratma; inner awakened Soul)? The answer would be that, he whose vision (drashti) is set on becoming devoid of attachment and abhorrence (vitarag), is the interim state Soul (antaratma). And whoever derives enjoyment from worldly, material happiness (bhautik sukh), and continues to have attachment and abhorrence ( raag-dwesh), is the embodied soul (jivatma)! Did you understand all that?

Questioner: There are so many veils (avaran) of illusion (maya)…

Dadashri: They are indeed all the veils of only illusion (maya’s avaran)!

Questioner: It is because of these veils of illusion, that one is prevented from entering the interim state Soul (antaratma), or further still, make any progress even from the interim (antaratma) stage.

Dadashri: No, once you become the interim state Soul (antaratma), the progress will always continue. But in the case where progress does not occur, one has not become the interim state Soul (antaratma) at all. The interim state Soul (antaratma), becomes dependent-independent. If one is independent to a certain degree, then why can one not make progress? One can do everything. Therefore the living being (jiva) has not become the interim state Soul (antaratma)! One is still the embodied soul (jivatma). One still does not know what the difference is between self (jiva) and Atma (Shiva).

It is just one thing: as long as one desires worldly happiness (bhautik sukh), one is a living being (jiva), and when he becomes aware of the bliss within and turns towards it, he is Atma (Shiva)! One is a living being (jiva), as long as one binds karma, and when he stops binding karma, he becomes Atma (Shiva)!

Worship The Liberated Purush, For Liberation

Questioner: Now, the Atma is in sat chit anand swaroop (established in the blissful awareness of the eternal, the Self); whereas the living being ( jiva) has five afflictions: ignorance, ego, attachment to pleasure, aversion to pain, and fear of death (panchklesha). So how can the living being (jiva) become sat chit anand swaroop?

Dadashri: It becomes like the one it worships. If it worships the state of eternal bliss (sat chit anand), it will become the embodiment of eternal bliss ( sat chit anand), and if it venerates a criminal, then it will become a criminal. The nature (swabhav) of the living being (jiva), is that it will become whatever it adores or worships. If one worships the one who is liberated (mukta Purush), one becomes free, and if one worships someone who is bound, one becomes bound. Therefore, if we worship the one who has established in the blissful awareness of the eternal, the Self ( sat chit anand swaroop), then we ourselves become that form.

Attributes of the New Changed State

Questioner: When one goes from embodied soul (jivatma) to the interim state Soul (antaratma), what notable changes happen?

Dadashri: Do you mean the notable changes that occur from embodied soul (jivatma) to the interim state Soul (antaratma)?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: One’s tendencies (vrutti) stop going outwards. The tendencies that go outwards such as, ‘I will do this, I will do that. We will do this, we will do that,’ will all turn around and come back. Just like the cows that go to graze in the morning, but come evening, do they not return home? In the same way, the tendencies (vrutti) all turn around. So you should recognize, that the person is starting to become the pure Soul (Shuddhatma). The tendencies, that were roaming around outside, have stopped their roaming and are returning homeward. If you look at your own tendencies, when you examine them, they will appear as if they are roaming around all over, so one might be wandering off that way, one this way, even all the way to those big snack houses and restaurants, is that not so? The big snack houses are very nice, and if just one day, you go and try it out, then the tendencies (vrutti) will just keep wandering off there. Therefore the tendencies will keep roaming around, but once you become the interim state Soul (antaratma), the tendencies turn back.

Questioner: When one progresses from the interim state Soul (antaratma) to the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), what notable changes take place?

Dadashri: What it is, is that, the astitva (existence), vastutva (the Self; to know ‘Who am I?’) and purnatva (the state of being complete, the absolute Self), are three gradations. Every living being (jiva) has the awareness of its existence (astitva), ‘I am’. Does it or does it not have the awareness of ‘I am’? It is not just humans, but even animals, that have the awareness of ‘I am’. Even this tree has the awareness of ‘I am’. Therefore each and every living being (jiva) is aware of its existence (astitva). And when it becomes the interim awakened Soul (antaratma), then he becomes aware of the vastutva (the Self), ‘Who am I?’ Thereafter the absolute state (purnatva) carries on naturally on its own. Spiritual effort (purusharth) is only needed in the stages from existence (astitva) to awareness of its Self ( vastutva). And after that, it continues to ascend naturally. This is how the change in the vision (drashti) is.

Instead of going this way, one heads the other way, believing that his full completion (paripurnata) lies in that direction. When he meets a Gnani Purush, who turns him back, and changes his vision in this direction, then the state of the embodied soul (jivatma) is broken. And when he comes to his original place (muda sthan), he attains the interim state of the Soul (antaratma). The tendencies (vrutti) then all start to return. As he turned around, so do the tendencies start turning around, and he continues to be more and more natural and spontaneous (sahaj). Until the interim state of the Soul (antaratma) is attained, until the “interim government” is established, one needs to take the Gnani’s support. Full government will continue to be established once the interim government is established.

‘You’ Attain Your Own Completion, Through the Nimit of the Gnani

Questioner: You Dada, are absolute (param) Atma, and we are living beings (jiva), that is the only ‘difference’ in us and in you!

Dadashri: That is the ‘difference’. But after you do darshan (see; visit) here and you receive Gnan, ‘you’ then become the interim state Soul ( antaratma). The interim state Soul can see the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). And from ‘seeing’, that form (Parmatma), becomes your own. Then what more could you want?

Right now there are so many ‘wrong beliefs’ that have set in! We have to “fracture” these ‘wrong beliefs’, and instill the ‘right belief’; therefore ‘You’ become the interim state Soul (antaratma). Then the absolute state (purnahuti) will occur naturally.

And this is not the kingdom of lawless rule of some Popabaai (‘Popabaai nu raaj’). I give you moksha (liberation) in just one hour, and it does not happen through Popabaai’s rule. This has never happened. I am just an instrumental being (nimit). This is an extraordinary path. Where there is a rule, there is always an exception. This path is an exceptional one, and I have come to be its nimit.

Conviction of Parmatma Leads to the Absolute

When one enters the state of delusion or ignorance of the Self (mudha dasha), one is called mudhatma (deluded self; unaware of reality; the worldly self; not awakened to the Self). What would you call, ‘I am Chandubhai, I am a collector’? It is the state of delusion of the deluded soul (mudhatma). He believes that happiness lies in destructible, perishable (nashavant) things. You are indestructible and eternal ( avinashi). And the perishable (nashavant) is destructible and impermanent (vinashi), and you can never multiply the two, ever. Nevertheless, because of illusion (bhranti) one believes that happiness lies in worldly things, and that is why he is called the deluded self ( mudhatma).

Now when the Gnani Purush gives him the conviction (pratiti) of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma): ‘This world is not all mine; I am the Absolute Soul.’ It is then that the ‘I am this’ (hoo-panu) becomes one with the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). At first, it is not complete oneness; but they become one through the intent of conviction (pratiti bhaav). Firstly it is through the intent of conviction (pratiti bhaav ), and then they become one through the intent of Knowledge (Gnan bhaav). So first the conviction (pratiti) of ‘I am the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma)’ has to set in. Right now, ‘I am Chandubhai’ is the wrong belief that has established itself. ‘I am a collector’ is a wrong belief.

Those are all the wrong beliefs that the Gnani Purush will fracture (destroy), and he will install the right belief. You yourself will accept it, your mind-intellect-chit-ego and everything will accept it, so that you become free from doubt (nihshank) – that is when your work gets done.

You are filled with infinite lifetimes of doubt (sanshaya). And when the Gnani Purush fractures them all for you, you will become free from doubt (sanshaya), and then attain the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). And the belief and faith (shraddha) that arises, is the right belief.

Every Soul Is a Separate Entity Even in Siddha Kshetra

Questioner: Are all the souls different, or are they different forms of one Absolute Soul (Parmatma)?

Dadashri: With respect to worldly interaction (vyavahar), they are all different. When we look at them by name and physical form, through worldly interaction, they are all different, but really they are one. Relatively they are all different, but really they are the same! So what do you wish to know?

Questioner: This Brahma (the Self) that there is. Why did he have a desire to become infinitesimally divided, from being just one integral thing? Why did he have the desire, Ekoham Bahusyam (I am One,may I be many)?

Dadashri: What this is, is that he is just one. He has not become many; he is just one. But it is because of illusion (bhranti) that there appears to be many. This is all just one nature (swabhav). No matter how many ingots of gold you have, if you put them all together, would it not all be the same gold? But if brass gets mixed in with it, there is damage! They are all truly Bhagwan (God); their form (swaroop) is Bhagwan. But the reason as to why they all appear different is because of illusion (bhranti).

Questioner: So is the element of Atma (chetan tattva), the same in all of them?

Dadashri: Yes, it is the same. But by same, we mean that they are the same by nature (swabhav)!

Questioner: But upon death, when the Soul (chetan) goes away, does it not reunite? How can it survive a separate existence?

Dadashri: Everything in this world is separate. The separation that is felt over here, is the same separation that is over there! The separation over there, means that by nature (swabhav) everything seems to be as one, but by existence (astitva), they are separate. To experience one’s own (of the Self) bliss (sukh); one is separate.

By their inherent nature (swabhav), they are one, but they appear different through the differentiating intellect (bhed buddhi). As long as you have this intellect (buddhi), there will be interference. When the intellect comes to an end, is when you will experience the oneness ( abhedta). What does the intellect do? It creates division. Once the intellect is gone, you will be able to understand this.

If what you said was true, about there being a reunification up above, then no one would ever go to the final liberation (moksha)! If that is what is really going to happen, and we were all going to merge into a single light, then what would we get out of it? Instead of that, here your wife may berate you, but at least she will make you savory fritters (bhajiya)! So what is wrong with that? Therefore, you do not become one over there. There is no kind of suffering there. You just live in eternal bliss (parmanand) over there. And moreover, each Atma is independent. Their nature ( swabhav) is the same, but they are all separate entities. So if they all became one over there, then what would happen to the Atmas over here?

Questioner: So if there is just one kind of chetan (the Self), how can its existence be separate?

Dadashri: It does remain separate, so how can they become one? They can never become one. These bars of gold are all separate, but essentially it is all gold. You can say the same for the Atma; that it is one. But just like these gold bars, they are all separate. There is no other difference in them. It is through the intellect (buddhi) that you see them from the wrong aspect. Otherwise, in the absolute liberated state (siddha sthiti), they are all experiencing their own bliss (sukh)!

Those who have differentiating intellects (bhed buddhi), find it very difficult to understand this! Although they are many, they are one; is something worth understanding, and also something very subtle! If they were to all merge in one over there, then what do you get out of it? Even I heard the same thing when I was young, that one light (deevo) melds with another, to become one. So how did that help me? You want the bliss of moksha, so if they all become one, what kind of bliss would you get? If you become one with Bhagwan (God), then what is left of you? And besides, they are all Bhagwan. Ramchandraji has gone on to moksha, and right now he himself is enjoying the bliss of moksha. Whereas we are here, and so we have to endure the problems that we have over here.

Even in the worldly life (sansar), even in the universe, there is not just one Atma; there are infinite living beings (jiva), but they all have one inherent nature (swabhav). There is never any change in their inherent properties or traits (gunadharma).

It Will Have to Be Scientific

Questioner: But what I believe is that besides the element of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma tattva), there is nothing else, and that which we call Atma, is nothing other than a manifestation of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma).

Dadashri: You can believe that, but along with it, do you not also suffer unhappiness and pain (dukh)? So if the Atma were the manifestation of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), then have you experienced unhappiness?

Questioner: Yes, I have experienced unhappiness (dukh).

Dadashri: Since you do experience unhappiness, you will have to believe in all the numbers from one to hundred. And if you do not experience unhappiness (dukh ), then it is fine if you do not believe in them. Otherwise, you will have to believe in all the numbers from one to hundred: forty-five, then forty-six should follow, and after forty-six, forty-seven should follow. Everything will have to be methodical. No falsity and no discrepancies. It may work everywhere else, but in science, falsity will not work!

Questioner: So does it mean that the Atma is now a separate element, since it has separated from the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)?

Dadashri: Not separated; the Atma itself is the Absolute Soul, and even the embodied soul (jivatma) is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). The difference only lies in the understanding. When he is at home, they will say, ‘He is this woman’s husband.’ And when he goes to the shop, they say, ‘He is the boss.’ When he goes to court, they will say, ‘He is the lawyer.’ But he himself is the same person. Therefore, it is the same embodied soul ( jivatma); the same interim state Soul (antaratma); and the same Absolute Soul (Parmatma)! And each one is ascribed an adjective according to the work that it performs.

There Is No Merging of Souls

Questioner: So is it true that the Atma really does merge into the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), if not in one avatar (lifetime), then perhaps in the next avatar or even in the third avatar?

Dadashri: No, no! There is no merging over there. The Atma itself is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). ‘I am Chandubhai’ is the awareness that you have right now. And when you have the awareness, ‘I am Atma’, that is when you will have the awareness of the Absolute Soul. That Atma is the Absolute Soul itself. Even your Atma is the Absolute Soul, and his Atma is also the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). But the whole concept about merging that people have written about; has just ruined people’s minds. How can you have merging of the Atma? It is the same Atma, but they are not aware of it yet. You are unaware of Atma at the present time. You do not have the awareness of Atma. At the moment, ‘I am Chandubhai’ is the awareness you have; ‘I am Desai’ is the awareness you have. But ‘I am Atma’, is not the awareness that you have!

All these (mahatmas) are seeing the Atma that resides within you, and that itself is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). If there were any merging occurring, you would not even see the Absolute Soul! You can even see the Absolute Soul in the goat! The entire Absolute Soul is sitting inside a goat, even inside a donkey there sits the Absolute Soul. So there is no such thing as merging. You need to put everything you have read so far, to one side.

If you cannot get any butter out of it, in spite of churning it, then what good is it? Just get rid of it, pour it out. Moreover, all the effort that went into it; has gone to waste and has clotted his head with the arrogance of, ‘I know something!’

Oh hey, what do you know? All this relentless tripping and stumbling has taken a toll on you! If a person takes such a beating, would he not feel thwarted? And who knows what he thinks of himself!

Questioner: But it has been said that every Atma is a separate part of the one Atma. It is a separate part of the Absolute (Brahma), then it merges back into it.

Dadashri: Who told you that?

Questioner: I have read that every Atma merges into the Absolute (Brahma). When the Atma attains its absolute state, it merges into the Absolute ( Brahma).

Dadashri: So then what is there left for you?

Questioner: We become one with the Absolute (Brahma)!

Dadashri: But what is there in it for you?

Questioner: I want to be rid of the state of I and my, that pertains to the ego (apnapanu), and attain the state of God (Ishwarpanu).

Dadashri: Yes, but how will you benefit from becoming an integrated part of God (Ishwar)? Instead of that, you do have your own independent identity, and right now you get your sweets and fritters (laadva and bhajiya) and everything. Is it not just a matter of putting up with a few insults?! What other problems do you have? Besides, what do these people say over here? They say, ‘We only want to go to moksha (final liberation), if there is more happiness (sukh) over there than there is over here, but if we have to merge over there, we do not want to go!’

If Light Merges With Light, What Is Left of You?

Questioner: But those who say, ‘I am the Absolute’ (Aham Brahmasmi), talk about merging into the light, saying that moksha means merging into the light, are they both the same thing?

Dadashri: What they consider as final liberation (moksha); that final liberation means merging into the light, is not the proper moksha. The moksha that those who no longer have attachment and abhorrence (the Vitarag),have spoken of: that there in the realm of the Liberated Souls (Siddha gati), one experiences one’s own separation and independence – that is the correct thing! If we do not have the experience of separation and independence, and in the final liberation (moksha) we have to merge and become one, then there is no point in going to moksha, itwould be meaningless. Therefore all these are just thoughtless ideas.

Constant Immersion in Eternal Bliss – That Is Moksha!

Questioner: So according to your assessment, what do you consider moksha (the final liberation) to be?

Dadashri: Moksha means, no boss, no subordinate and permanently remaining in one’s own natural state of bliss. And one enjoys one’s own bliss, on his own, independently. Every Liberated Soul (Siddha) is in its own state.

Questioner: So do all these many Liberated Souls (Siddha Atma) behave in their own different ways over there?

Dadashri: No, not in different ways. They all have the same nature (swabhav), which is only in one way. They have Knowledge (Gnan), Vision ( Darshan) and bliss (sukh). They do not have conduct (charitra). If there were a Tirthankar Bhagwan here, He would possess Knowledge, Vision and Conduct (Gnan, Darshan and charitra), as well as a body. The Liberated Souls (Siddhas) over there, do not possess conduct (charitra). Over there, they always exist in their own natural bliss!

So there is no merging over there. There, you can enjoy your own bliss in an independent way. In the abode of the Liberated Souls (Siddha gati), all the Liberated Souls (Siddhas) exist in an independent way. And they all experience their own bliss. They experience constant Absolute Bliss ( Parmanand). If just a minute’s worth of their bliss (sukh), should ever fall to Earth, or happen to ever slip down, the entire world would

experience bliss (anand) for a thousand years – that is the kind of bliss they enjoy over there. And that is the kind of happiness (sukh), that these people are struggling to find. Your own bliss (sukh) is like that. For me, in spite of the hindrance of this body, from the bliss ( sukh) that there is, I can tell that if the body were not a hindrance, what kind of a bliss it would be! You are sitting with me and even then you are all experiencing the joy and bliss (sukh)! It is my bliss that is overflowing, and you are getting a taste of it!

Questioner: Without a physical body, how can we experience bliss (sukh)?

Dadashri: When you try to contemplate bliss without a physical body, your body is with you, and so the bliss that you contemplate, will not be like the other one. From this, you can infer that if there is so much bliss (sukh) over here, what kind of bliss would there be over there?!

The Experience of the Bliss of the Self in Siddha-Gati

Questioner: Those who are in the realm of the Liberated Souls (Siddha gati), who have gone to moksha (final liberation), and who are experiencing the bliss without a body; who is experiencing that bliss?

Dadashri: The Self experiences the bliss of the Self. They experience their own constant bliss, and they are constantly in their own space. And what work do they do? It is the work of Knowing (Gnan kriya) and the work of Seeing (Darshan kriya), that goes on continuously!

Questioner: Then why would they need this work of Knowing and Seeing over there?

Dadashri: That is their nature! This light, would it not be constantly seeing us? If this light were living (chetan), then would it not go on seeing us? That is how this Self (chetan) continues to see.

Now, what would they be seeing from over there? The Knowledge-Vision (Gnan-Darshan) they have, is their own infinite Knowledge (anant Gnan) and infinite Vision (anant Darshan), that is used, and the result of that is bliss (anand). So bliss does not come first. It is not bliss first, and then Knowledge (Gnan) and Vision (Darshan). When their Knowledge and Vision are used, the bliss is always there! They do not possess anything else besides Knowledge and Vision. Their entire form is one of Knowledge (Gnan swaroop) and one of Vision (Darshan swaroop). So if you raise your hand, they can see it.

So even for them, the seeing increases and decreases. When night falls, this half decreases, and the other half increases. It increases and decreases like that. And when it is five in the morning for us, they can see all these people here. But when can the increase really be seen? At ten, eleven, twelve o’clock, when people are all moving about, going from here and there, they see all that. All they want to do is to See and to Know, and not get too deep into it like, is this man getting ready to steal, or what? They can even see him pick someone’s pocket, but they just See and Know; the only two things they do! They are not engaged in any subject. What is this subject? That would be of pick pocketing. That is a subject for them to know, it has nothing to do with them!

If I raise my hand, all the Liberated Souls (Siddhas) would see it in their Knowledge (Gnan). Those Liberated Souls continue to know the object to be known (gneya). In this world, there are just two things: that which is to be known (gneya) and that which is to be seen ( drashya). They (liberated Souls) continue to know the things to be known (gneya) and see the things to be seen (drashya). And what is the result of that? It is boundless bliss (sukh), a limitless bliss. That is the bliss of the Self (swabhavik).

One by Nature but Separate in Existence

Now what problem do people have? It is that, why is it not there just one thing over there? Alas! It is really just one, but in what way? If we had a stack here, of five hundred thousand gold bars all piled up, would we not have to say that it is gold? We can call it that, can we not?

Questioner: You can call it gold or you can also call it gold bars.

Dadashri: No. But could you just not ask if all of it is gold? Never mind that it is in the form of bars, is it still not all gold? And in the same way, the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) is also just one. The Atma is one, and like gold, it has just one form, but in the form of gold bars, it is separate. Each one, does not let go its individual inherent nature.

Questioner: So does it mean that a single Atma is one whole Atma? Can we say that?

Dadashri: Pertaining to gold, every Atma itself is gold, but when it comes to gold bars, each Atma does not relinquish its own individual state.

Questioner: Does it mean that each individual’s Atma is ultimately, just one?

Dadashri: One, meaning that it is one by nature (swabhav). There is no difference in the Atma. Just as there is no difference between the gold bars, as they are ultimately all gold, in the same way, there is no difference within each Atma.

Questioner: If the Atma has only one inherent property (gunadharma), then why did they all become individually separated?

Dadashri: The reason why it has separated individually is because of the change in its time and space! Each one’s time and space is different. Is this person sitting in the same space that you are sitting in? Now if he gets up from there and you go and sit in his place; you would have the same space, but then the time would change.

So the world is like a flowing stream. This world is not still, but flowing, in the form of the worldly life (sansar). Sansar (the worldly life) means evolving (samsaran), constantly changing, and not staying still for even a moment! Just as if there were an army of two hundred thousand men marching by. There would be rows of five, ten or fifteen, and would they not all be assembled in a line? And as it is passing by, would you not be able to see it all? That is how the Gnanis see the world passing by. When the eyes of Knowledge (Gnan) open up, they keep seeing the world as it flows. And because it is flowing, no one else is occupying the space you are in, and when someone comes and occupies your space, then the time changes. Can you understand that? Therefore, this body (deha), the shape (aakaar), good karma (punya) and bad karma (paap); they are all separate. But as the Self; they are all of one nature.

The Soul Cannot Be Divided

Questioner: So can we really say that all Atmas are a fraction of just one Atma?

Dadashri: No, no! All Atmas cannot be a portion of just one Atma! Anything, whatever it is, anything that has form (roop), will always have a portion; however, anything that is without form (aroopi), it does not have a portion. The formless (aroopi) is only in the form of one thing. If it could be made into portions, or broken into pieces, and divided, it would never become whole again. So the Atma (the Self) is in the form of completeness.

Questioner: So am I the complete pure Soul (Shuddhatma) from within?

Dadashri: You are complete, you are the whole!

Questioner: So the Atma cannot be divided?

Dadashri: The Atma itself is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). And it is in an elemental form (vastu swaroop). Therefore, not a single piece of it can be separated; it is entirely whole. Division would create a portion, and it would destroy the element ( vastu), but that is not how it is. The Atma cannot be divided.

Questioner: The life-forms (jivas) that are called amoeba, they multiply systematically through division, from one into two, and from two into four, that is why I was asking about whether the Atma divides.

Dadashri: That is true. But the Atma does not undergo division. It is the body that goes through the division. There are infinite jivas in the body, and they have their own divisions. In a single potato, there are many, many life-forms (jivas). When you cut it up, you could plant this small a piece, and it would even grow. And there are so many other things that if you cut up, would not grow! Anything which you cut up, and which grows when you plant it, has many living entities (jivas) in it. Plants with milky secretions and succulents (water-retaining) like cacti, would grow if you planted a small segment. They contain the most jivas, which continue to proliferate.

Questioner: So what is the difference between, what they call a subtle soul (sookshma atma), and the gross soul (sthool atma)?

Dadashri: There are no divisions such as subtle (sookshma) Atma or gross (sthool) Atma or anything else, for the Atma. Nevertheless, people go around saying gross Atma and subtle Atma, and all that. All that; is the transient or destructible (vinashi) Atma. And that which is the real, original Atma, is eternal and indestructible (avinashi). It does not have a subtle part, nor does it have a gross part!

The Atma that I am referring to, is one in which there is no subtle (sookshma) division, nor gross (sthool) division; it is indivisible and inseparable (avibhagi-avibhajya), which is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). And you are talking about an Atma that is gross (sthool) and subtle (sookshma) which can be divided. All this gross and subtle is impermanent and destructible (vinashi). It is a mechanical atma. It will only work if you allow air into it (body), but if you stop the air from entering, it will perish. Whereas the original and fundamental (muda) Atma never dies.

So if the Atma were a portion of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), it would never become absolute. And if it does not become absolute, then it cannot be the Atma! ‘You’ are absolute. But you are not aware of it. Your awareness is just a fraction. You are the whole Absolute Soul. The Absolute Soul can never be a portion. You cannot make pieces out of the Absolute Soul.

Can You Ever Make a Rupee from a Pai?

Do you now understand that Bhagwan (God) exists in an absolute form? You thought God existed as a fraction (ansha)? So when those people who have said that he exists as a fraction, it cannot be wrong, can it? Would that be wrong? It is not wrong, but if they drank the medicine which was supposed to be rubbed on, what would happen? What is the fraction form (ansha swaroop)? It is that Bhagwan within you is complete and full ( sarvansha), but however many coverings (avaran) break, a proportional Knowledge (Gnan) is uncovered for you. But the Bhagwan within is complete (sarvansha). And in this lifetime, it is possible that the complete Knowledge (Gnan) can manifest for you. It has to be someone from Hindustan (India). That is because someone from here, in Hindustan, is “fully developed” (spiritually evolved). This Gnan is not useful to those in foreign countries. It is because they do not understand reincarnation (punarjanma). They have no use for this Knowledge (Gnan)! Those who understand reincarnation; understand the complete form of God!

Therefore, if they hear about such a science, the energies of the people in Hindustan will be awakened. Otherwise these people believe in their minds, ‘What were we ever going to do? We are a fraction (ansha) of God!’ This is what people have taught, to say, ‘We are a fraction of God!’ Now, whatever knowledge that these people acquire, whatever understanding they receive, and by whatever knowledge they live by, is the very knowledge, the very dependent knowledge which relies on, ‘I am a fraction of God.’ So when will you ever become complete (sarvansha)? This will not get you anywhere. You are not a fraction of God. That which is a fraction, does not have the energy (shakti) to become complete. A part or fraction (ansha) will always remain in the form of a fraction. And the complete (sarvansha) will never be in the form of a fraction; the complete (sarvansha) will always remain complete! One may say, ‘Why has so much ignorance spread? Why do they believe that this is God’s form (swaroop)?’ That is when the Gnani Purush explains, that the God within is complete (sarvansha), a fraction of his form has been unveiled, and that is as much as he benefits. But one’s Self is really complete.

Did you understand? If you say, ‘I am a fraction of God’, where will it get you? When I came across people who spoke about being a fraction of God, I thought to myself, ‘What sort of a thing is this!’ When I was little, I came across those who would say, ‘We are a fraction of God (ansha swaroop)!’ That is when I became annoyed and thought, ‘you might be a fraction, but why would I be a fraction?’ He is the portion (ansha swaroop)! Besides, one pai (penny) can never make a rupee (dollar). If a pai hung around for thousands of years, would it ever become a rupee? Therefore, you need to understand this!

The Real Understanding of the Omnipresent

Questioner: The Atma is complete (sarvansha), so is it also omnipresent (sarvavyapi)?

Dadashri: No. The Atma being omnipresent; is in the relative sense. However, this is not always so. The omnipresence you are referring to, is it from the independent perspective (nirpeksha), or the dependent perspective (sapeksha)?

Questioner: The real sense.

Dadashri: Does this light illuminate the entire room or not?

Questioner: Yes, it does.

Dadashri: And what if you covered it up with paper or something?

Questioner: Then it would get dark.

Dadashri: Then you would not see any light here, would you?

Questioner: No, I would not.

Dadashri: So at that time, is it omnipresent (sarvavyapi)?

Questioner: At that time we feel illusion (bhranti), but nevertheless, the light is still everywhere (sarvavyapi)!

Dadashri: No, it is not like that. People have misinterpreted the meaning of omnipresence (sarvavyapi)and used it in the wrong context.You say,‘the Atma isomnipresent’, but your understanding iswrong. I will explain the meaning of omnipresent (sarvavyapi) to you.

In the final avatar (birth; lifetime), when there is the final body (charam deha), the Atma becomes fully uncovered. And at that time, that Atma is omnipresent (sarvavyapi) throughout the entire universe. However, it is not the same for all Atmas.

Only the Atma, that is heading for final liberation (moksha) and that has become completely veil-free (niravaran); is one that becomes omnipresent. But not all these other souls, did you understand that?

Questioner: So is the Atma itself omnipresent as the Self (chetan)?

Dadashri: No. It is not omnipresent as the Self (chetan); its inherent nature (swabhav) is omnipresent (sarvavyapi).

It is in the last avatar (lifetime), when it has the final body (charam sharira), that its light spreads throughout the entire universe. That is why it is a dependent (sapeksha) thing. It is not that way for everyone. Besides, people die all the time, do they not? Do they not have funerals everyday?

Therefore, it is said that the Atma is all-pervading and omnipresent (sarvavyapak); however, it is because of its light that it is omnipresent, it is omnipresent through its illumination; it is not everywhere itself.

Therefore, it is the light of the Atma that is omnipresent (sarvavyapak). And that light illuminates other things. Are there not both, the object to be known (gneya) and the Knower (Gnata) in this world? Or is there just the Knower (Gnata)?

Questioner: There is both, Knower (Gnata) and that which is to be known (gneya).

Dadashri: So have you accepted what I have said? Likewise, is there not the object to be seen (drashya) and the Seer (Drashta) both? There are both, objects to be known (gneya) and the Knower (Gnata), and the object to be seen (drashya), and the Seer (Drashta ). Everything except for the Atma is to be seen (drashya) and to be known (gneya). Now the Atma’s light is such that, its illumination reaches wherever there is something to be known (gneya), and something to be seen (drashya).

For instance, if you put a light inside this pot, and fix a lid over it, there would not be any light pouring out on the outside, it would only light the inside of the pot. Then if you break the pot, how far will the light go? The light will spread around whatever receptacles it is placed in, and throughout whatever room it is put in.

In the same way, if the Atma becomes free of coverings (niravaran), it can pervade all the regions of the universe and beyond ( lok-alok). But the Atma only gives enough light to illuminate the worlds and planes of existence (lok). There are no objects to be known (gneya) in the space beyond the world – the limitless space (alok); therefore the Atma’s light, that of the Knower (Gnata ) does not go there. There is lok (worlds; planes of existence), which is why the other part is referred to as alok (space beyond the world; limitless space). In the space beyond the world (alok), there are no objects to be known (gneya) whatsoever. There is only space ( aakash). And because there is no object to be known, the light of the Atma cannot illuminate anything over there, which is why it can illuminate the entire universe (lok). And that includes every Atma, provided that the coverings are destroyed!

Just as if you place a light inside a pot, and you pierce however many holes in the pot, that much light would gradually come out of it. In the same way, the light of the Atma comes out through the five senses. Now in the full and complete (purna) state, when the body disappears, this light spreads throughout the entire universe. That is its nature (swabhav).

Right now, it is in the body. Therefore, first you have to know the knowledge of the Self. Once you know that, it means that the ignorance over the Soul is lifted. Thereafter, all the karmas will move away by themselves and gradually things will become more clear to you. There are infinite locations ( pradesh) on the Atma that are covered by veils of layers of karma. As the karmas gradually begin to discharge, the veils begin to shed.

The Atma Fills the Space It is in

Therefore, the meaning of omnipresence (sarvavyapak) is different. It is not the way these people understand it. The meaning of omnipresence would be like this light bulb. It is the only bulb; there is not a bulb everywhere in the room. It is just its light that fills the room. That is how a single Atma has the energy (shakti) to illuminate the entire universe. After becoming the pure Soul (Shuddhatma), the remaining karmas are discharged completely, and when it becomes free of karma, it has the energy to illuminate the entire universe.

But the way people have understood it, is that there is Atma in everything, that there is Atma in this and Atma in that. They have understood it wrongly. What would happen if you drank the medicine instead of rubbing it on? Then neither the disease on the outside is cured, nor the disease on the inside is cured!

So when it is said that ‘this light is everywhere’, then it means that the bulb is in one place and its light is spread all over the room. If you take this bulb and put it in a pot and cover it with a lid, would you be able to see its light everywhere then?

Questioner: No, you would not see it.

Dadashri: Therefore, the pramaata (illuminator) casts its light according to the prameya (contained space; receptacle) it is in. The receptacle ( prameya) is about this much; if you put a bulb in the pot, the amount of light will only fill the pot. Then, you would not see its light anywhere on the outside.

When The Prameya is The Universe, The Pramaata is Parmatma!

Questioner: Somewhere I read that you should have a long spiritual discussion (satsang) with a Gnani Purush, and understand the meaning of pramaata, praman and prameya. So would you explain this?

Dadashri: Yes. Prameya (contained space; receptacle) means, this body would be considered as prameya and even this universe would be considered as prameya. The Atma itself is the pramaata (illuminator). Right now, the Atma is in the body, so what would be the extent of the Atma’s light at this point in time? What would be it’s extent? It is limited to the body. Now, if Atma has full Knowledge (Gnan) and becomes free of the body, then what would the extent of the light become? That light, would illuminate the entire receptacle (prameya); the entire universe. The pramaata would assume the expanse of the prameya (receptacle). The light will occupy the space of whatever receptacle it is in! So after the atma attains absolute Knowledge ( Keval Gnan), if the Atma becomes free of the body, then this pramaata would spread throughout the entire prameya (receptacle). Atma’s light would spread across the entire universe. Currently, what is the extent? Then one would say, ‘Only to the extent of the body.’

If you put a light inside a pot, it will have intensity, and when the pot is broken, the light will flood the room, and its intensity would decrease. Therefore, the further this light spreads, the less intense it becomes. That is because it is physical (paudgalik) light. Whereas the light of the Atma never loses intensity, no matter how much it spreads, even if it spreads throughout the entire universe, it always remains the same.

Omnipresent, by Relative Viewpoint

Therefore the Atma is omnipresent (sarvavyapak), and such statements are relative (sapeksha); however, people have taken them literally as real fact (nirpeksha) and the belief is misconstrued; what is meant to be rubbed on, they drink instead. That is relative ( sapeksha), so what does it mean? It means that the Atma does not become omnipresent (sarvavyapak), when all humans die. When those with Absolute Knowledge (Kevalis) and Tirthankars reach nirvana (moksha), their Atma which is released, illuminates the entire universe; it becomes omnipresent (sarvavyapak). From that perspective, from the relative (sapeksha) perspective, the Atma is omnipresent (sarvavyapak). It is not always omnipresent. For that matter, all these people go around calling it omnipresent, omnipresent, omnipresent. Nevertheless, as long as humans have ignorance (agnan), the light of the Atma does not come outside. Only when the Knowledge (Gnan) becomes full, does the light spread throughout the entire universe. Your own Atma is like that, except it is covered with layers (of karma).

When the Atma goes to moksha (final liberation), its full light, illuminates the entire universe. The omnipresent (sarvavyapak) light, spreads throughout the universe. From that perspective, it is omnipresent. However, the Bhagwan (God) that you see otherwise, is what you see through the divine vision (divya chakshu). And that too, you will only see, if there is a creature before you; however, if creation is involved, then you would not be able to see it. Hence: “God is in every creature, whether visible or invisible: not in creation!” There is no God within this machine. And this lot has stuck, ‘God is everywhere’, all over the place.

Is There Atma Everywhere in the World?

The whole universe is fully packed with creatures; living entities (jivas) and within those living entities, there is Soul (chetan). Yes, and so there are two components in these living entities (jivas): non-living (jada) and eternal element, Soul (chetan). And the eternal element (chetan) is pure (shuddha chetan), which is itself the Atma; the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) itself.

Questioner: So is there nothing anywhere else besides the Atma?

Dadashri: No. The Atma is not alone. In each living entity (jiva) there is the non-Self (anatma), and there is also Atma (the Self). And the meaning of omnipresence (sarvavyapi) is different, but they have not understood it, and that is what they go by. If it was omnipresent (sarvavyapi) like that, then where would they go to defecate? In a home, do they not normally keep the toilet and the kitchen separate?! If God were everywhere, then which wood would you burn, and which wood would you not burn? Would you not have to use your discretion? Lord Krishna has told us about both, the non-living (jada) and the living ( chetan); Atma and anatma.

This living (chetan) and non-living (jada), are both two entirely different things. Anything that is non-living (jada), you can use; however, if you hurt anything that is living (chetan), you will commit sin (paap). There is life, Soul (chetan) in a tree. If you cut it or burn it, you will incur paap. And if you found any kind of wood just lying around here and you burned it, then it would not matter. That is because there is no Soul, life (chetan) in it.

Original Revelation Through the Exact Vision

Therefore, Lord Krishna gave us the clear distinction, of there being two things: the Atma and non-Self (anatma). If you believe that the non-living (jada) itself is Atma, then what would become of the Atma? If there is only wheat everywhere, then why would you need to separate the grit? If the wheat and the grit were mixed in together, and you were told that it was only wheat, then why would you have to separate them?

If you go to the grocers to buy some wheat, what would you ask the merchant for? ‘Give me some grit’, is that what you would say? Or would you say, ‘give me some wheat’?

Questioner: I would just have to tell him to give me some wheat.

Dadashri: Would you not have to tell him what sort of wheat you want?

Questioner: Yes, wheat from Gwalior.

Dadashri: Yes. And if you asked him to show you what the wheat grains look like, he would instantly pierce the sack, and take out a few grains, ‘Look, the whole sack is full of this sort of wheat grain’, he would say. He calls it a sack of wheat. Even people call it a sack of wheat. And when you bring it home what will your wife say? ‘They have to be separated (winnowed; remove grit or husk).’ ‘What! I have only brought you wheat, what is there to remove?’ ‘I have only brought wheat!’ you say. Then your wife will say, ‘You have no commonsense, wheat and grit always come together. It is called wheat.’ Then you say, ‘But even at the store, they were all calling it wheat!’ That is what they say in the interaction of the worldly life (vyavahar). In worldly interaction (vyavahar) you can call it wheat, but it comes with grit. And so you have to bring it home and pick out the grit. Worldly interaction is like this. The interaction of the world (vyavahar) says that ‘this is a sack of wheat’. You may say, ‘Now look here! There is grit in it!’ And they will say to you, ‘You cannot say that, this sack contains only wheat!’ That is called worldly interaction (vyavahar). You have to understand worldly interaction!

If I come to your home and I have to brush my teeth in the morning, I will say, ‘Give me a toothbrush’. So what sorts of things would you provide?

Questioner: A brush, toothpaste, and everything should be provided.

Dadashri: Yes, would you not bring a water-pitcher, a wooden seat, and all of that?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: But if I only ask for a toothbrush, why would you bring all these other things? Yes, so worldly interaction (vyavahar) is like this. Only so much is said, but you have to understand everything. That is why you need to understand vyavahar. If you just place a toothbrush in front of him, what

would he say? He will say, ‘Bring me toothpaste, bring me water, I need this and that.’ And that would create a problem. Instead, you should just understand the worldly interaction (vyavahar).

So in the worldly interaction you can certainly call it wheat, but there will also be grit in it. Similarly, in vyavahar (the worldly interaction) when they say, ‘The Atma is everywhere’, they have said it in this context. There is wheat, and there is grit with it. In the same way, there is the Atma (the Self), and with it, there is anatma (non-Self). That there is Atma everywhere, is really not true. But if you had to understand that, then things would fall into place.

That is why people have understood this wrongly, by thinking that all is Atma, so that even in the pole there is Atma, that there is Atma even in the wall. Their understanding is all wrong. And therefore, whether it is wheat or grit, it does not matter. It is all just wheat they say, and we do not say no to it. Because for those merchants (businessmen), it is all only wheat. But for the one who eats it, is it not both wheat and grit together? What is it to the businessmen?

Questioner: It is just wheat.

Dadashri: Yes, for all the businessmen there are, this is what it is. But even the one who eats it (consumer) needs to understand! Otherwise, if God is everywhere, then when are they going to find the real God?

Therefore, people have only understood that the Atma is in everything. There is no meaning in that! ‘It is all wheat’ is something a businessman would say. Would any merchant ever tell you, ‘There are both, wheat and grit’? Then we would just say, ‘Remove the grit.’ But the merchant will maintain that, ‘It is all wheat.’ But for the one who wants to eat it, it is both wheat and grit.

Therefore, you need to either know the wheat, or know the grit, but it is fine if you know just one of them. If you wanted to separate the grit from the wheat, would it not do just to know the grit?

Questioner: When you know the grit, all the rest will be the wheat.

Dadashri: So what they are saying is, ‘If you know one, you will know both.’ And this is why ‘we’ make you know the pure Soul (Shuddhatma). And so you will know the rest.

How do these people talk? ‘Oh hey, Ben (sister), have you sorted the wheat yet?’ What she is really doing is picking out the grit! Well, just look at our language! You go there and you say, you were saying that you were picking the wheat, but you are picking the grit! And she will reply, ‘No, I am only picking the wheat!’ Nevertheless, they still manage to pick out the grit! Why would people talk like that?

Questioner: They just do not have the right understanding!

Dadashri: This worldly life (sansar) is in the form of illusion (bhranti), so even what people say is all wrong!

Is the Atma Without Attributes or With Infinite Attributes?

If one could just understand the true meaning of what Lord Krishna has revealed, one could become a true devotee. Lord Krishna had uncovered the entire science, and he said that the four Vedas were trigunatmak (possessing three characteristics of the prakruti, the non-Self complex: rajas, sattva, tamas). These four Vedas are for the people. However, those who want to attain the final liberation (moksha), must go beyond the four Vedas, and come into the Gita.

Questioner: You have spoken about trigunatmak, but is not it said, that the Atma has no attributes (nirguna)?

Dadashri: This belief about the Atma (Self), not having any attributes (gunas), is a belief that is fraught with mistakes. Even a stone does not lack qualities in this world. That stone can even be used in construction or for throwing (dhekhado), can it not?

Therefore, the Atma is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). It possesses many infinite attributes (gunas). I am going to explain to you what ‘without attributes’ (nirguna) means. The writers of the scriptures (shastras), had said ‘without attributes’ (nirguna), but people interpreted it in their ownlanguage. If you understand it in your own language, would you belikely to receive any benefit?

Questioner: No.

Dadashri: What are they trying to say? That, with regards to the attributes of the non-Self (gunas ofthe prakruti), the Atma (the Self), is without attributes (nirguna). Not a single attribute (guna) of the non-Self complex (prakruti) is found in the Atma. However, it has an abundance of its own natural attributes (swabhavik gunas). Did you understand this? The Atma (the Self) does not have a single attribute (guna) of the non-Self complex (prakruti) in it, which is why it is called nirguna (without attributes).

In This World, Nothing Is Without Attributes

Questioner: But they say that no matter how you worship Brahma (Atma) the formless (nirakar), which is without attributes (nirguna); that is the way he will present himself right in front of you. That means through the means of a vision with form (sakaar swaroop), one can have such a darshan.

Dadashri: This is how it was: the Brahma (Atma) that was given to these people; was really the Brahma of illusion (bhramanaa). Atma (Brahma) is really not without attributes (nirguna). This is an illusion of the illusion (bhramanaa noh brahma ). This is what they, without understanding, they have haphazardly knocked into their own language, as they pleased.

Questioner: But what is Brahma? Please tell us!

Dadashri: It is the original element (muda vastu). It is eternal (avinashi). It possesses innumerable, limitless attributes (gunas). Alas! By relentlessly carrying on with this nirguna, nirguna (withoutattributes, without attributes)appellation,they have indoctrinated everyone, so they too would say the same thing. Therefore, I have to tell you, even using stern language, ‘Hey you! There is guna (with quality) even in a stone!’ Is it not useful for crushing chutney?

Questioner: Yes, it is.

Dadashri: Moreover, now tell me, you! Is it the Atma alone that has no attributes (gunas)? To make them understand, would I not have to use strong words? How long are you going to carry on believing this? And if this is what you believe, when will you attain the Atma?

Therefore, in reality, even a stone possesses qualities (gunas). But these people call the Atma as being nirguna (without attributes), and because everyone said the same thing, the entire truth became distorted. Therefore, I have had to say that it is true that the Atma is nirguna (without attributes). But that you interpreted, in your own language. So it means that from the perspective of the non-Self complex’s attributes, it is without attributes (nirguna). Not a single attribute of the non-Self is in the Atma; but the Atma is full of its own attributes (gunas).

Now, they have gone as far as calling the Atma, nirguna atma! Listen here you! Not even a stone is without attributes (nirguna)! And you call the Atma nirguna (without attributes)? Even in a hundred thousand lifetimes, how will you ever veer towards the realm of the real thing (vastu; Atma)? Not even a stone is without attributes (nirguna). When a buffalo takes a dump, even its dung is not void of attributes (nirguna); it can be used for many purposes, can it not? Is it not useful as leyp (to spread on the floor, or plaster on walls)? Therefore, each and every thing has its attributes (guna). Is it not the attribute (guna) that is useful? Is even dirt not useful?

This sort of misconception has been happening throughout eternity, and that is why people have suffered so much devastation and despair. Mistakes in religion (dharma) are not acceptable! There should never be any mistakes in religion. And what happens if there are mistakes? Besides, this is vignan (science). The slightest mistake in it, will throw it out of proportion. Did you understand nirguna?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Therefore, the Real (muda) itself has attributes (saguna); it is the abode of infinite attributes (gunas). It has many natural attributes (swabhavik gunas). However, none of the attributes of the non-Self are found in the Atma which is why it is called nirguna (without attributes). Instead, people have understood this to mean that, since none of these attributes (gunas) are in the Atma, it makes the Atma without attributes (nirguna). Hey you! In this world, not even a stone is void of attributes (nirguna). Whether good or bad, not a single thing is without attributes. If everything has attributes, then how can there be no attributes (nirguna) in the Atma?

Ultimately, Only the Prakruti’s Gunas Afforded

Questioner: We have the three qualities or traits (gunas): sattva, rajas, and tamas. How are they related to the elements?

Dadashri: What are you going to do with those qualities (gunas) of sattva, rajas, tamas? They are impermanent

(vinashi) gunas, they belong to the non-Self complex (prakruti). And the elements (tattva), are eternal (avinashi).

These sattva, rajo and tamo, are the characteristics (gunas) of the head deities (adhisthata deva). So whoever needs these characteristics, should worship Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh. That is all they are for. Nothing else!

Questioner: So are they considered deities?

Dadashri: Absolutely! However, for whichever characteristic (guna) there is, for that particular characteristic, there is a corresponding presiding deity ( adhisthata deva). Those with dark traits (tamo guna) are Shiva, those with passionate traits (rajo guna), are considered Vishnu, and those with virtuous traits (sattva guna) are considered Brahmaa. So if you worship that specific deity, it is good, as it will increase that particular trait (guna). But ultimately you will have to know the Atma.

Questioner: But what about the description of Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh, which is given in the scriptures (shastras)?

Dadashri: These idols have been installed for the purpose of strengthening the non-Self (prakruti). Vishnu is characteristic of passion (rajo guna), Mahesh is characteristic of darkness or inactivity (tamo guna) and Brahmaa is characteristic of virtue (sattva guna). These people have established these three forms (murti) in order to strengthen those three qualities (guna). So in doing the worship (puja) of one, its representative characteristic (guna) strengthens. Moreover, those qualities (gunas) eventually draw to an end.

Questioner: Then there is no point worshiping Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh, is there?

Dadashri: Of course, there is a point! Does man not have to strengthen his prakruti (non-Self)? He will progress further only if he strengthens his prakruti.

Symbols from the Perspective of Worldly and Non-Worldly Vision

Questioner: In the temple of Shiva (Shivalaya), symbolic images of all the eight parts of Ashtangyoga, namely: yama (moral codes); niyam (discipline, self purification and study); aasan (postures; sitting place), pranayam (breath control); pratyahaar (sense control); dhyan (meditation), dhaarna (intention, upholding, supporting) and samadhi (oneness with the pure Self), have been placed there.

The tortoise symbolizes control over the senses (pratyahaar). The standing posture on the bull (nandiswar) represents the sitting or standing place (aasan). The consort of Lord Shiva (Parvatiji) represents the focusing of the chit (inner component of knowledge and vision) in one location (dhaarna), and Lord Shiva (ShankarMahadev) symbolizes oneness with the pure Self (samadhi)…

Dadashri: These are symbolic representations. However deep one ventures into this, he must hurry back home as quickly as possible. All these symbols have been instilled for the benefit of others. However, if they help, they may help; otherwise, the symbols just remain as mere symbols. But these people have come to regard the symbols themselves as the truth. There is no such thing as Brahmaa, Vishnu or Mahesh. They are just symbolic representations of the three qualities (guna) of strength and virtue (sattva), passion (rajas) and darkness (tamas).

Questioner: Creator, preserver and destroyer.

Dadashri: Yes, and in the language of the Tirthankars, do you know what they are?

Origination (utpaad), preservation (dhrauv) and destruction (vyaya), is the language of the Tirthankars’. These three words, because of all these symbols allotted to them, have caused so much confusion, and the symbols themselves only had significance to the people of those times. People understand the significance in whichever time period they are in; however, when the time period changes, that is when the confusion arises.

These people have muddled everything! Now if you went looking for Brahmaa, where would you find him? Would you find him anywhere in this world? And if you tried to look for Vishnu, would you find Vishnu? And what about Maheshwar?

We ask, ‘What work do they do? What is their business?’ And they say, ‘Brahmaa creates. Vishnu runs and preserves all this. While Maheshwar (Shiva), is given to destruction.’ Hey you! Should you be bowing to the destroyer over here?!

That is how it all is. If you want to know the truth about this, then in this world there are six elements (tattva) that are constantly evolving. And the six elements are eternal. Eternal means, would it have a maker (creator)? Would you need someone to create it? Is it wrong to say that an eternal thing cannot be made unless someone makes it? Therefore, there is no one to create it.

Nevertheless, people still say, ‘does there not have to be someone to create it? Goodness! Why don’t you understand the meaning of the word eternal! What is the nature (swabhav) of these six eternal elements? They possess their own qualities and roles (gunadharma). That is because you can only call something eternal, if it comes with its own qualities (guna). It has its own properties (gunas), and it also has roles and traits ( dharma). Dharma means condition or state (avastha); phases (paryaya)! All these six elements come with their own properties and phases. And they are regularly changing and constantly interacting with one another. Just as when there is an eclipse from the changes (parivartan) in the moon, the earth and the sun, the changes of each of these six elements, causes all the circumstances and conditions (avastha) to arise.

Now, the properties (gunas) that are there; are constantly with them. So there is no increase or decrease in them. However, the phases ( paryaya) and circumstances (avastha) change. What is been said about that? That phases arise and abate, and they carry on occurring and disappearing, and there is no departure from the state of permanence or a constant state (drauvata). The rising-abating occur due to circumstances ( avastha) and the constant state is due to inherent nature (swabhav).

And so, these eternal elements come with their own attributes (guna), and their own phases (paryaya). So what would the phases be? And the answer is, to arise and diminish, to arise and diminish. The element (vastu) itself; is always permanent. It lives forever. And the circumstances (avastha) arise and dissipate. That is why they are considered, origination (utpaad), preservation (dhrauv) and destruction ( vyaya). It is these three, that people have called Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh. And that was for the benefit of others, however people misinterpreted it, and what was meant to be rubbed on the skin, they instead ingested. What benefit will you receive if you drink what was meant for rubbing?

So did you understand what Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh are?

Questioner: They are three elements (tattva).

Dadashri: No, in reality they are not even elements.

Therefore, people have called origination (utpaad) Brahmaa. They have called destruction (vyaya) Mahesh, and preservation (drauvata), they have called Vishnu. People have given forms to these. Just consider it a kind of searching! They tried to do good but after a long time, would it not backfire on them? That is why people have established idols and iconic representations (murtis) of Brahmaa.

What is more, is that they have even installed an icon (murti) of the Gita (Bhagavad Gita) and made an idol of GayatriMata (goddess). They have not left anything alone! You foolish people! Stop making idols ofGayatriMata. That is a mantra (sacred word), the best of the best mantra. And that mantra has to be recited as a mantra, and not be worshiped in the form of an idol. The Gita is meant for reading, for studying and understanding. But instead of that they have made it into an iconic form (murti), and now they are praying to it. And in worshiping the Gita, they have forgotten about Lord Krishna. Lord Krishna has been left behind, and the icon has replaced him. That is how they have botched things up!

Alas! The entire significance surrounding this has been lost; the meaning became stamped out! It was meant to lift people onto a good path. However, when it goes awry, should you not have to uproot it and discard it? Should you not establish a new foundation?

By installing these symbols, they have suppressed the masses. If they had just left it in a scientific way, as it is, what was wrong with that? Is there anything wrong in it? That they had to bring Brahmaa, Vishnu and Maheshwar into it.

Questioner: But Dada, it is through imagination that they have been installed, and that imagination has perpetuated throughout the years.

Dadashri: And they cannot find the real thing. And so I discovered it, and now I have started presenting it to people.

Therefore, this is just the circumstance (avastha) of the elements (tattva) which people have symbolized in this way. And this was just so that people would not forget. So the way people interpreted it was that it was these three that ran everything. Vishnu runs this, so and so runs this! So how many superiors (uparis) have you placed above you?

Questioner: Three.

Dadashri: No, no, not just three, many more. Moreover, even the god of death (Yamraj) is your superior! There is a superior (upari) everywhere. Is there any wonder that a poor man appears so frightened?

That is why I say, that no father is a superior (upari). Let go of your worries silently. Your mistakes and your blunders are themselves your superiors (upari)! (Blunder is the belief of ‘I am Chandubhai’ and mistakes are all karmas created in this ignorance). Since you have not understood this, what can Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh do?

Therefore, the nature (swabhav) of an element is beginning (utpaad), preservation (dhrauv) and end (vyaya)! There in the realm of Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), to all the Liberated Souls (Siddha Bhagwan), this entire world always appears as origin, preservation and end. It is not seen through its original properties (muda guna). It is seen through origination (utpaad), steady state (dhrauv), and destruction (vyaya).

Now these circumstances (avastha) occur, and this is why they have formulated, origination (utpaad), steady state (dhrauv) and destruction (vyaya). And again they have also written it in other words: utpanneva, vighneva and dhruveva.

But otherwise, Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh are just symbols in this world. For a short time, these symbols proved to be very useful. And that very symbol has now become destructive. That is why we are trying to eliminate these symbols: brother, there is no such thing as Brahmaa, Vishnu and Mahesh. There is only you and Bhagwan (God). There is no one else. There is no god of death (Yamraj) at all. Get rid of the nonsense in your head. I am trying to tell it as it is, because right now, is there any need for these symbols? When were the symbols needed? It was when they kept cows, drank the milk, and sat down to meditate! However, their intellect (buddhi) was not cultured. That was a good time, when things you wanted came your way on their own. So would a man’s intellect ever become cultured? And these days, you cannot get sugar, you cannot find good ghee, you cannot find whatever else, so look how “cultured” the intellect has become! Never before has such a cultured intellect (buddhi) come about. However, this intellect is misguided and contradictory (viparit). You need someone to make it right (samyak). That same contradictory (viparit) intellect, is what the Gnani puts right (samyak). It is light; however, it is used in the wrong way. So that one uses it in the right way, you need someone to show you how. But right now, they are considered thinkers. Whereas before, there was not any thinking of this kind. Moreover, in the Satyug (time cycle of unity in mind, speech and actions), there was not time to think. In Satyug, everything would come to your doorstep, so there was no need to think! Therefore, it is in this Kaliyug (current era of the time cycle, where there is no unity in mind, speech and actions), where you really need to think!

All this is false. In this world, there is not a single person that has been born, that would have the independent ability to vacate his bowels at will. All these are just symbols that have been established. So everything that has been written so far; is all wrong. If you cannot understand it with your intellect, then you should know that it is wrong. Why do all these people here understand it through intellect (buddhi)? The answer is that our people have become lihat (lost their power of critical thinking). You should ask foreign scientists, as their intellect is clean. And what kind of intellect do the people here possess? Devoid of thought (lihat)! Those in foreign countries will tell you whether something is possible or not. Even my intellect (buddhi) was never devoid of thought from the very start. I would easily figure out if someone was not being upfront. Besides, if something was true, I would immediately tell it like it is. And from the seat where I sit right now, what do I have to say? I have to say yes, to that which is, and that which is not, I have to say no to it. If I did not say no then people would be led astray. If they do not ask me, I do not have a problem with that. But if they ask me, I have to tell them whether it is correct or not!

Just look, have they not brainwashed everyone with the god of death; Jamraja? There is absolutely no ‘bapo’ (superior) like that. There is not even an insect that goes by the name of Jamraj. He represented death governed by Nature (Niyamraj). This is what was knocked into people.

Whatever palaces we built; they have now become old which is why this yields the wrong results. So demolish them. Because for how long are they going to yield good results? For the time that they are new. Later, the fruit that they yield will be mediocre, then less than mediocre, and after that, it will be bad. Therefore at this time, the consequences they are yielding, are bad. So do its demolition.

As long as a house is new, for a short time, it will be helpful, but what happens when it becomes old? Will it not become a liability? The framework will deteriorate, the drains will collapse, and the tiles will become loose. That is the state of things right now! Where has the helpfulness gone? For so many years, this has not been helpful. But it has thrown people into confusion! Besides, there is nothing in it.

Now if we ask them, what is Brahmaa, Vishnu and Maheshwar? They will say, ‘Brother, they are just deities (deva)’. They do not understand this. No one, other than the Gnani Purush, can get to the bottom of this. Only if it is beyond the knowledge mediated through the intellect ( buddhijanya gnan), can this be explained. Otherwise, this cannot be resolved through knowledge based on the intellect (buddhijanya gnan), and the entire world is stuck in knowledge mediated through the intellect!

And because all this has not been understood, delusion has set in.

Questioner: My delusion has disappeared.

Dadashri: Yes, is that right? If you want, you may ask me anything. You can ask anything here.

Moksha Means to Remain and Grow in the Attribute of the Self

Questioner: They talk about final liberation (moksha),what is this thing, moksha?

Dadashri: Moksha means to return to the role or attributes (gunadharma) of the Self. And while staying in one’s own nature (swa-swaroop) and in constant eternal bliss (sanatan sukh) – that is called moksha!

Understanding Correctness from the Gnani

Questioner: Many opinionated people ask why we would want to go to moksha. There is no independent happiness (sukh) over there. They make snide remarks like that.

Dadashri: They are just tossing dirt over the final place (bhumika). Just so that they can run their enterprises, they are throwing about all this dirt. I have searched for what correctness is! I have made all kinds of investigations and explored everything along the way, and I have come up with all the research.

So if ever anyone claiming such a thing were to come here, he himself would say, ‘Sir, give me moksha!’ This is because it will not take long at all to change his opinion and beliefs. A belief should be an irrefutable principle (siddhantik).

Questioner: That would be your powerful aura!

Dadashri: No, it is not that. However, here, if it is wrong, then it will not do. If it is truth, then everyone has to embrace it. If it is true, then no one can obstruct it. His is not truth, which is why he has to let go!

Nevertheless, this is the world, so the development of those who are saying this, is just that way. And if there was no development up to that point, they would not be doing any rituals (kriyakand) and all that, and the intellect (buddhi) would not grow. The internal turmoil and suffering (badapo) continues to grow, after the intellect has increased. And it is after the internal suffering has increased, that one begins to need final liberation (moksha).

As a person’s intellect (buddhi) grows, his inner suffering (badapo), as a counterweight, just continues to increase. Yes, so the Vedanta and all that is a means to increase one’s intellect. Alas, they keep on developing the intellect. And as the intellect grows, the inner turmoil arises. That is when they say, ‘Now where will I go?’ And the answer would be: ‘Go to the one who is devoid of attachment and abhorrence – the Vitarag!’ Besides, the Lord accepts them both. One can attain the right enlightened belief (samkit), from both paths: the path of Vedanta, and the path of Jainism. In both the paths, one can remain on one’s individual path, while attaining enlightenment (samkit).

The Atma’s Bondage

Questioner: So then, is the Atma itself independent (swatantra) and free (mukta); is it eternally blissful (sat chit anand)?

Dadashri: It is not independent (swatantra). I am asking you, who told you that the Atma is independent?

Questioner: The scriptures (shastras) say that the Atma is independent.

Dadashri: No, its nature is sat chit anand swaroop (established in the blissful awareness of the eternal, the Self), but it is not independent ( swatantra), which is why they are in such a predicament. If it were independent, it would have instant freedom (mukti)! How long would that take? It is bound in such a way, that say if it was bound with a thick, heavy iron chain, you would be able to cut the chain, with a “gas cutting” (cutting

torch). But it is bound in such a way that the chain cannot be broken. What sort of links these are! What has Kaviraj written?

‘Adhaatu saankadiye Parmatma bandivaan’

‘The Absolute Soul (Parmatma) is bound with a non-metal chain.’

The non-metal chain , refers to the chain of the non-Self complex ([_prakruti), by which it is bound.

Where did you come across independent (swatantra)? These kinds of books that you read, are they books that have been certified, or are you reading books which are “uncertified”?

Questioner: But the scriptures (shastras) say that the Atma is independent (swatantra) and free (mukta).

Dadashri: No one is saying that. If it was independent, then there would be no need for the attainment of final liberation (moksha); would the path to liberation still be there? You should say to the scriptures (shastras), ‘Why did you become books? Why did we need you here? Since the Atma is not independent (swatantra), you have been born to release it from its bondage!’ Besides, if it was independent, would there be any need for the scriptures (shastras)?

Those who say that ‘the Atma has no bondage (bandhan)’, may just as well be saying, ‘It does not have moksha as well’. And those who say, ‘the Atma has bondage (bandhan)’, also have to say that, ‘It has final liberation (moksha) as well’. This is not something that can be contradicted. Did you understand? Those who believe that the Atma has no bondage (bandhan), means that it does not need liberation. That is because the Atma is in moksha. But they need to understand what the nature of liberation (moksha swaroop) is.

Many say that, ‘the Atma has no bondage (bandhan)’. That is true. But since the  Atma has no bondage, then why do you go to temples? Why do you read the scriptures (shastras)? Why do you have worries? Would all that not be contradictory then? The Atma does not have any bondage; that much is a hundred percent true. This is an independent (nirpeksha) statement. From the aspect of Knowledge ( Gnan bhaav), the Atma is not bound, and from the aspect of ignorance (agnan bhaav), it is bound. When you have the aspect of Knowledge that is, ‘I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)’, then You do not have bondage (bandhan). However, as long as you have the inner intent ( bhaav), ‘I am truly Chandubhai’, then there is bondage for certain.

Anything that seems painful to you, you can call bondage. Otherwise, people in this world, do not even have the awareness of being bound; they do not have the awareness that ‘I am bound’.

No living entity (jiva) likes its own bondage (bandhan). Do you like being bound?

Questioner: No.

Dadashri: Nevertheless, what is it that you have to live in?

Questioner: In bondage (bandhan).

Dadashri: The entire day, you have to live in bondage (bandhan). Each and every living being (jiva) is stuck in bondage. Gnani Purush like ‘us’ is free, but rarely in any era of the time cycle One such Gnani Purush is around. Otherwise Gnanis can never be found in the world. Gnani Purush is free and so he is not bound by anything. Therefore he does not feel a burden of any kind, he has no fear; nothing can touch him. And that is what you, yourself have to become. But you can only become that in the presence of a Gnani Purush. For thousands of years, Gnani Purush is not around. You can become free when rarely a Gnani Purush is around.

When You Find the Giver of Moksha, You Find Moksha

Questioner: Can you say that liberation (moksha) is an end to expectation?

Dadashri: No, the nature (swabhav) of the Self is liberation (moksha).

Questioner: So then why have so many people repeatedly, talked only about the ways to attain moksha?

Dadashri: In reality, what it is, is that they talk about the moksha of their own language. But no one really cares about moksha. Everyone is only interested in, ‘What about me; I am someone!’ That is all they want. And should they ever meet a true Purush (Gnani), then without a doubt, they will find the path that leads to moksha! All these are just self-serving intentions, and they are engulfed in a battle of pride ( maan-taan) and hum (ego); they have not attained anything from it.

I (Hum) means the ego (ahamkar); therefore, when the ego ends, one becomes Bhagwan (God).

Questioner: Can one attain moksha, by asking for it?

Dadashri: You can get everything by asking, provided there is a giver of moksha (mokshadata) present. He must be a giver of moksha, who himself dwells in moksha; however, you should not talk about moksha with anyone outside. There you should talk about religion (dharma), and they will guide you towards a good religion.

Questioner: Where can you find someone who can give you liberation (moksha)?

Dadashri: This here is the only one. You can come whenever you want to. Or else you can come after your friend has attained moksha. Once he gets a taste of it, come after you have asked him.

Whose Intention Is to Attain Moksha?

Questioner: Does moksha not have to be done for the living being (jiva)?

Dadashri: It is for the one who is bound, that moksha has to be done.

Questioner: Who is the one that is bound?

Dadashri: The one who is suffering! The one, who suffers in the state of bondage (bandhan), is the one who is bound.

Questioner: Particularly, what is its name?

Dadashri: Who suffers the state (avastha) of bondage (bandhan)?

Questioner: Is it not just the living being (jiva) that suffers?

Dadashri: Are you not suffering it?

Questioner: Who do you mean by you?

Dadashri: So then who is the one suffering? Jiva? And do you keep seeing that? You do utter, ‘I (hoo) am suffering’.

Questioner: Hoo (I) meaning who? That question remains.

Dadashri: That itself is the ego (ahamkar)!

Questioner: Is the ego (ahamkar) not the jiva’s state (swaroop) anyway?

Dadashri: Leave jiva (living being) aside. What does the jiva have to do with it? A jiva is not a thing (element – vastu)! It is an adjective for the Atma, the embodied soul (jivatma): that brother, as long as we have this ego, it is an embodied soul (jivatma). When the ego (ahamkar) is finished, the Atma is released! However, when the ego decreases, and one has the awareness of one’s own state ( swaroop), it means that one has become the interim state Soul (antaratma), and once he becomes antaratma , he goes on to become the Absolute Soul (Parmatma).

Questioner: So whose inner intent (bhaav) is it, to attain moksha (final liberation)?

Dadashri: To attain moksha, is the inner intent of the one who is bound. The one, who is bound, desires to be freed. Which means that it is, the intent of the ego (ahamkar). The Atma does not possess that kind of intent (bhaav). The Atma is free anyways!

Questioner: If the Atma is not the sufferer, then what is it trying to become free from?

Dadashri: It does not have the intent to be free. It is already free. It is the one who is bound that wants to be free. It is the one that is bound, who is the sufferer, and who is also the doer (karta). The one who is the doer, is the one who is the sufferer; he is the one who wants to be free!

This is how it is: even this bondage (bandhan) has been created by the egoism (ahamkar), and it is also the ego that is looking for freedom ( mukti). This is because the ego can no longer endure the suffering. It thought that there may be something to savor here, but since there was nothing to savor, it now looks for freedom (mukti). However, the Atma is indeed free; by its very nature (swabhav), it is free! ‘By nature, the Atma is free’, if one could understand just this much, one’s work is done.

….Even the Coming and Going Belong to the Ego

Questioner: And is the Atma not without birth (ajanma)?

Dadashri: Yes, the Atma, by nature (swabhav), is never born (ajanma), and You (the Self) are also never born. However it is only when you become the form of Atma (Atmaroop), that you become without birth (ajanma). But as it is, you have

become Chandubhai, which is why this temporary adjustment has come about. You became the owner of the body, and you have believed, ‘I am Chandubhai’, and ‘this body is indeed who I am’, so when this dies, you will also have to die with it!

Questioner: The Atma is without birth and death (ajanma-amar), so what is it that comes and goes (avagaman)?

Dadashri: The Atma is indeed without birth and death (ajanma-amar), and it is always pure. Except that it has been affected by the five eternal elements (tattva); however when it becomes free of their influence, the Atma is indeed free. It is truly without birth and death ( ajanma-amar); when it comes to know its own state (swaroop), that is when the cycles of comings and goings (avagaman) all come to a halt.

Questioner: But who undergoes the cycle of coming and going; birth and death (avagaman)?

Dadashri: That which is the ego (ahamkar) is what goes through the cycle of birth and death (avagaman). The Atma remains in its same state. The ego comes to an end, and so its cycle ends!

Therefore, birth and death, do not happen to the Atma. The Atma is something permanent. Birth and death occur for the egoism. Egoism itself takes birth. And moreover, it says to the doctor, ‘Sir, save me, save me.’ Hey you! Are you not permanent? And he will say, ‘No, I am temporary.’ So all this is nothing but a battle of egoism. Only the Gnani Purush can remove that egoism. Egoism is the result of ignorance (agnan), and it is because of it, that this worldly life (sansar) still stands. In ‘us’ the egoism is completely gone.

Questioner: Where did the ego (ahamkar) and the Atma, and all that come together? I still cannot understand.

Dadashri: It is just an extra result (vishesha parinam).

There Is No Pain for Atma Swaroop

Questioner: Now, whether a man goes to heaven (swarg) or into hell (nark), even then, does the Atma not still remain separate from happiness ( sukh) and unhappiness (dukh)?

Dadashri: The Atma does remain separate, but what good does that do for us? As long as the ego (ahamkar) is there, one experiences pleasure ( sukh) and pain (dukh), and one does not like pain.

Questioner: But nothing happens to the Atma, does it? That is what I am asking.

Dadashri: This is how it is: If you had a gold guinea (old British coin), then no matter where you put it, it would not pick up rust. But if that guinea were lost, it is not the guinea that experiences unhappiness (dukh), but would you not experience unhappiness (dukh)? Similarly, the Atma does not experience unhappiness (dukh) at all; it is the ego that suffers in pain. When the ego goes away, you become Atma, and as long as the ego is there, you are not Atma.

Questioner: In that example, the guinea and I are separate, but in this, is it really separate like that?

Dadashri: Even this is separate. But you cannot see that. Just as you perceive that the guinea is separate, that is how ‘we’ see the Atma as being separate.

Questioner: So can we say that despite being in the body, the Atma is in moksha?

Dadashri: Yes, it is always free (mukta). But when ‘we’ give you this Gnan, it itself becomes aware of its own freedom. However, the Atma within, is indeed free;it has no unhappiness (dukh). But who experiences the unhappiness? The ego (ahamkar)! Once it is gone; the unhappiness is gone. It is the ego that has given rise to all this, it has detached itself from Bhagwan (God), and it has created a separation (bhed). When the ego leaves, there is no more unhappiness (dukh).

Questioner: So where is the Atma’s place?

Dadashri: The Atma itself is in the form of liberation (moksha swaroop), it has no other location. Its very nature (swabhav) is moksha. All this has come about as a result of a characteristic that does not belong to the Self; an extra intent (vibhav – the belief that ‘I am Chandubhai’).

Just like the nature (swabhav) of this gold, that even if you kept it for a thousand years, its nature will not change. And if gold is put together with copper into a mixture; that is when there will be changes.

Questioner: What does it mean to have attained moksha?

Dadashri: The work of the Atma has already ended. He that was bound is now free. He that was suffering unhappiness (dukh) was the one who was bound and when his unhappiness is gone, he himself became free (mukta).

He that had become separated from the Atma, the ego (ahamkar), is the ego that became dissolved into his own Self form (swaroop). So the work is done. It is because it was separated, that it was suffering pain (dukh). It had created the separation because of the wrong understanding, and there was now a division. They gave you a name ‘Chandu’, and so it was in that name that you became embroiled. Therefore, its work had ended. The Atma is eternal and indestructible (avinashi). Its work has already been done. But when will it ever be released from here? The answer is: when this intellect that creates division (bhed buddhi) is broken; it will be released.

Questioner: After it becomes free, what does it do?

Dadashri: Thereafter, it attains the abode of the Liberated Souls (Siddha gati). And it is there that it resides in a constant state of absolute bliss (parmanand). As long as the body remains, it has a burden.

Even the body is cumbersome. The body through which one does not experience happiness (sukh), is the body that the Gnanis are encumbered with. But that cannot be avoided! Until it has reached its discharge limit there is no escape!

Dualities Perpetuate Bondage

Questioner: Once the Atma goes to its final liberation (moksha), it does not assume another body, but is every Atma not already in liberation (moksha)?

Dadashri: No, it is not like that. Infinite Atmas have become trapped in circumstances in this way. In order to go to moksha, they are all trying to come back to their own nature (swabhav). However, the non-Self (anatma) that there is, does not allow it to come into its own nature of the Self (swabhav). So not all souls, have entered liberation (moksha) yet.

Questioner: So does that mean that the Atma has not seen moksha yet?

Dadashri: No, it has not. Nevertheless, its own nature (swabhav) is moksha. But what are these circumstances (saiyogo) like? They are in the form of duality (dwandva swaroop)! This matter (jada) part, the part that is the non-Self (anatma) part, is in the form of dualities (dwandva swaroop). Duality means, gain and loss, happiness-unhappiness (sukh-dukh), attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh), which are all by nature dualities that it assumes as its own; that is why it remains perpetually bound. When the pressure of the circumstances ( saiyogo) is lifted, that is when it encounters the Gnani Purush, it encounters people to facilitate the attainment of an instrument (the instrument being the Gnani Purush as a nimit), and that is when it finds liberation (moksha). Otherwise, moksha is not something that happens by itself. Nevertheless, all the Atmas are indeed moving towards moksha. However, depending on the kind of nimit (instrument) he encounters, he again roams. Then again, it is only here in the human form that the roaming takes place. Or wherever else he roams, is correct. And if he should come across a wrong nimit, he can even be taken to a life in hell (nark gati), or into a yoni (place of creation) in the animal realm!

It Is Worth it, If Moksha Is Procured

Questioner: To attain moksha, is this body a necessary instrument?

Dadashri: The human body is the greatest instrument for attaining moksha (final liberation). Even in the celestial realm (deva gati) you cannot attain it, even in the animal gati (realm) you cannot attain it; you cannot attain it in any other avatar (birth). It is only in the human avatar that all the five realms of life-forms are open.

Is Moksha Possible for Every ‘atma’?

Questioner: When will all the Atmas reach the full stage?

Dadashri: If all the Atmas went to their liberation (moksha), this worldly life (sansar) would no longer exist. So do you wish to destroy the worldly life? What is your wish?

Questioner: There is Knowledge (Gnan) in the Atma, then would that stage not come when it can go to moksha?

Dadashri: Yes, that stage does come. It does indeed enter that stage, and they are on their way to final liberation (moksha). But when you say that, if all the world’s Atmas went to moksha, you have made the intention (bhavna) for the destruction of the worldly life (sansar), that ‘let this worldly life not be!’ And this worldly life is something that is the development of the Atma! The original (muda) Atma is already developed, the Atma itself is full and complete (purna), but right now, your progression that has come about, is such that it is entrenched in

the non-Self complex’s (paudgalik) beliefs. Those beliefs through shifting, shifting, shifting, move towards the fundamental intention ( bhavna) of the form of the Self (chaitanya swaroop) and that is when completion (purnahuti) occurs.

Questioner: Does that mean that no Atma can reach moksha (final liberation) at all?

Dadashri: Goodness! There are so many that do indeed reach the final liberation! Even I am in moksha right now!

Questioner: Could it ever happen that all the Atmas go off to final liberation?

Dadashri: Can a mother and son ever be the same age? The day that a son and mother are the same age, is the day that the entire world would go to moksha (!)

It is like this: ‘may the entire world go to moksha’ is an intention (bhavna) that you are entitled to. However, it will never materialize. It will only materialize when a mother and child are both the same age (!)

One man says to me, ‘Why do you not take the whole world to moksha?’ So I told him, ‘I will explain to you. If all the living beings (jivas) became warriors, who would they attack? If all the world’s living beings became doctors, who would they heal? If all the living beings in the world became barbers, then whose hair would they cut?’ And he says, ‘I understand, I understand, I will not ask that again!’

It is Nature’s arrangement, so we do not say that more should come together. That is its arrangement, that by way of vyavasthit (scientific circumstantial evidence), they all come together. Otherwise, would we not keep sending everyone letters (invitations)? No, but these karmic accounts (hisaab) have already been arranged. So we need not worry about it. Here we just come and go.

Did you understand all that? This worldly life (sansar) itself is like a stream, that has been eternally flowing. Every living being (jiva) in it, will definitely attain final liberation (moksha), sooner or later, and that is its sequential order (kram). The sequential order means that in one smallest fraction of time (samaya), a hundred and eight living beings (jivas), are definitely going to moksha; in the flow of the stream!

Questioner: All the one hundred and eight jivas that go to moksha, where do they all come from?

Dadashri: From all the fifteen locations (kshetras) in the universe. A hundred and eight of them, go to moksha.

Just like a parade of policemen, passing by in rows of four, one behind another, on this side we have a stream of a hundred and eight souls (jivas), going from interaction in the world (vyavahar) to final liberation (moksha); entering the place of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra ). And the same number of souls enter into theworldly state(vyavahar rashi), from the undetermined, non-interactive state ( avyavahar rashi). Therefore, in worldly interaction (vyavahar), there is no increase or decrease in the number of souls, not a single soul increases, or decreases. What would you call a soul that interacts in the world (vyavahar jiva)? All those that have been given a name are interactive in the worldly life (vyavahar), and those who have not been given a name, have not yet come into interaction in the world ( vyavahar). And those who have lost their names, have gone to the abode of Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra).

Namo Siddhanam – The Goal of Worship

Questioner: You say that there is no one above us, is there not the location of Liberated Souls (Siddha lok) above us?

Dadashri: That is the realm of the Liberated Souls (Siddha lok), that is the place of the Absolute Souls (Siddha kshetra), they are all those who have gone to the final liberation (moksha), they are done; they will not listen to you, and they will not even say anything about anyone; they do not have any feelings for anyone, they do not have anything. They are just basking in their own bliss (sukh)! They will not help us. They represent our goal. When you say Namo Siddhanam, it only stands for a goal that says, ‘This is the state I want!’

Questioner: When we say Namo Siddhanam, does the salutation (namaskar) really reach them?

Dadashri: Even if it does not reach them, at least it has reached the Absolute Soul (Siddha) sitting within you! The Atma that resides within you is indeed Absolute (Siddha)! We should only be concerned about getting the work done! You should send your salutation there. And it is your responsibility to make sure that it gets there. So you have to send a letter to them.

No Activity for Siddha; Nevertheless There Is Action

Questioner: Those who have become Absolute (Siddha), does God send them here for a purpose?

Dadashri: No one sends them. There is no one there to send them here. No one has the need to send anything over here. The world is such, that it needs no one. You do not have any superior (upari) at all. In this world no soul (jiva) has an upari. Your own faults and blunders are your superior ( upari).

Questioner: So in the location of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), what are the activities of the Siddha Bhagwan (Lord)?

Dadashri: That which has to carry out actions (pravrutti), is considered mechanical. They are not mechanical.

Questioner: No, but once they go to final liberation (moksha), is there activity (pravrutti) or inactivity (nivrutti) over there?

Dadashri: There is neither inactivity (nivrutti), nor any activity (pravrutti) over there. Nevertheless, there is still the activity of Knowledge ( Gnan kriya) and the activity of Vision (Darshan kriya). There is inactivity and there is also this action (kriya). You cannot say that it is activity, but even so, there is action.

Siddha Kshetra – What a Marvel!

Questioner: So do all the Atmas in the place of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra) keep to themselves?

Dadashri: Yes, they have nothing to do with anyone else. It is like that in this world, that no one has anything to do with anyone else at all. And whatever there is; is just by way of an instrument (nimit). Even I am only an instrumental person (nimit).

Questioner: When we go to the place of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), do we just have to sit there alone? And do we just continue to see?

Dadashri: It is not the sitting around of your language. You do not have to stand around, or sit around over there; you do not have to lay around. There it is something quite different.

Questioner: Do we just see all the time?

Dadashri: Yes, but it is not something that you can imagine. You are trying to see it through your imagination, but it is not that sort of thing.

Questioner: What is the place of the Liberated Souls (Siddha shila) like?

Dadashri: The Siddha shila is a place where karmas do not stick to you, even if they wanted to; whereas here, karma will stick to you, even if you did not wish it to! The subatomic particles (parmanu) are everywhere constantly. Here, the subatomic particle is always ready, but over there, it does not affect them at all. God! That is the eternal state!

Questioner: Are there no subatomic particles (parmanu) in the location of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra)?

Dadashri: There is nothing there. The Siddha Lords, are able to know all the things to be known (gneya) over here by themselves. However, in their place, there are no things to be known (gneya). The location of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra) is a sort of place for all the liberated Souls to stay.

Questioner: Is Siddha kshetra (location of the Liberated Souls) within this universe or outside of this universe?

Dadashri: It is on the edge of the universe, on the final edge. You should understand it in your own language, and then everyone else will interpret it in their own language. However the Siddha kshetra does not exist outside of the universe, but it is at its edge!

The Wondrous Seat of the Siddhas – The Ultimate Goal

Questioner: Can the Liberated Souls (Siddhas), who have become liberated (Siddha) in the location of Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), be individually identified?

Dadashri: No, they are not individuals like that. They do however, have an awareness of existence (astitva), elemental nature (vastutva) and the absolute state (purnatva); the awareness of ‘I am’, and that is all. Over there, there is nothing like it, is there? Each and every one of them, dwell in the awareness (intent) of ‘I am’! There is no talk of anything else, there is not any kind of dispute or discrimination between individuals and there is no mutual relationship. All these mutual relationships are found over here, and they are relative. Whereas over there, it is real; it is absolute, in which there is no interdependency. There they have the awareness of existence (astitva), elemental nature (vastutva), and absolute state ( purnatva)!

Questioner: Everyone has bliss (sukh) over there, do they not?

Dadashri: They all experience the same bliss. In the awareness of the elemental nature (vastutva), tremendous absolute bliss (parmanand) is always there!

Questioner: Just like we get a full house at a cinema theater, is there the same kind of full house there too?

Dadashri: That is your imagination (kalpana). There is so much vastness over there, that in spite of the infinite number of Liberated Souls (Siddhas) over there, an infinite number of Siddhas will be continually going there. Everything over there is infinite!

Questioner: In this world, the Atma can only exist if there is the presence of matter (jada), and if not, is the Atma able to exist on its own?

Dadashri: What you said is correct. The Atma can never exist on its own in this world. It is only in the realm of the Liberated Ones (Siddha gati) that the Atmas can exist on their own.

Questioner: So there are no other surrounding conditions, besides the Siddha gati, where the Atmas can exist on their own!

Dadashri: Yes. That is true.

Questioner: Could it also be that if we go to moksha, we may encounter all of this again?

Dadashri: No. There is nothing like that. The reason it happens like that over here, is because here, we have all these circumstances (saiyogo). In this location (Earth), these are the circumstances that we have, which is why it happens this way. But over there, these circumstances do not exist. Therefore it is not possible for this to happen, nothing like that can ever occur again.

When two things come together, neither of them, relinquish their own properties (gunas); however, this gives rise to an extra property and trait ( vishesh gunadharma). Now this is an extra intent (vishesh bhaav). And it is that extra property (vishesh gunadharma), that is the worldly life (sansar). Now if they had the non-Self complex (pudgal) in the place of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), then even there, the extra intent (vishesh bhaav) would occur. But there is no pudgal over there!

Questioner: The Atma becomes bathed in the realm of the Liberated Souls (Siddha gati), but are there not subatomic particles of the non-Self complex ( pudgal parmanus) on the outside?

Dadashri: But they are outside the location of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), meaning that they are only in the lower part. They are in a state which does not affect the Liberated Souls (Siddhas). The abode of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra) is situated in the middle of the worlds or planes of existence (lok) and space beyond the worlds; the limitless space (alok).

Questioner: Can the surrounding conditions or circumstances of the abode of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), affect other worlds or planes of existence ( lokas)?

Dadashri: Not at all. What has effect got to do with anything? There is no relation at all. And there is no effect of any kind on the Siddhas.

Questioner: They may not be affected, but do they affect the outside or not?

Dadashri: No. Nothing here is affected by them. Nevertheless, it is our goal; that it is where we want to go!

Part Two

Who Am I? How Can I Know That?

Now How Can the Cycle End?

Questioner: Now, I just wanted to ask you, what do we need to do to put an end to the cycles of birth and death?

Dadashri: Now you ask the question, in the fifth era of the current time cycle (araone of the six divisions of time in one half of the time cycle. We are currently in the fifth ara, which began about twenty-five hundred yeas ago)? It would have been possible to stop the cycle in the fourth ara, but you failed to do that, because you were too busy “tasting chutney (savory relish)”. Just only for the chutney (material; worldly pleasures), that is all you desired, and therefore you stayed behind. When you could have put a halt to cycle of birth and death back then, you did not do anything there. Now you have come, there is no recourse left to you; you may have your chutney, but the solution is no longer around. Now do you feel that you can let go of the chutney?

Questioner: It may go away.

Dadashri: Yes, in order to stop the cycles of birth and death, you will have to attain the knowledge of who you are. You must attain the right vision (samkit ).

Questioner: Until the purpose of this life is realized, all other discussion is meaningless. One only needs to know that purpose. It is there, that the fundamental question lies.

Dadashri: Yes. This fundamental question is indeed true.

This is how it is: There is a businessman (sheth), who is a very content man. He owns a mill. Whenever he talks about anything, he makes all his two thousand employees, delighted. That is the way he speaks, and that is how behaves. He possesses a beautiful respect. But what would he be like, when he is tired at the end of the day, and has a drink? He starts feeling intoxication from the brandy, so he becomes oblivious to his own condition. His own awareness grows dim, until he is enclosed in darkness.

Questioner: In the intoxication from the alcohol, he loses all awareness, so how do people lose their spiritual awareness?

Dadashri: In spirituality (adhyatma) it is intoxication from illusion (moha) that does not come down. It is in this state of intoxication, that people talk. All that you are talking about right now, is after you have had a swig of the alcohol; that is moha,intoxication due to illusion. I have removed the intoxication in all these mahatmas. But yours has not been lifted, so you are in a perpetual state of intoxication when you talk. So when this intoxication is lifted, you will understand what this life’s purpose is; you will immediately realize it.

Just like the businessman who, after his state of intoxication has lifted, is just the same as he was before! Then he resumes talking nicely! So with him, it is the intoxication from the alcohol; whereas the world is intoxicated with infatuation due to illusion (moha); but a person’s alcoholic stupor, can be lifted by dousing a couple of bowls of cold water on him. Here, however, the intoxication of illusion (moha) can never be lifted. Then even if you went to the Himalayas, or anywhere else, wherever you look, you will only come across drunks. They leave their homes, their wives and children, but they do not renounce the hum (I; the ego); their I (hum) never leaves. They are perpetually in, I, I, I. When the I (ego) goes, that is when he becomes the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). ‘You’ yourself are the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). However, you are not aware of this, because you do not have the awareness (jagruti).

Questioner: Let us come back to the main topic, which is, what should humans live for in this world?

Dadashri: They should live for liberation (moksha). Nevertheless, if they do not have the understanding, then they all live for women, they live for money, or they live for whatever else. But it is all on account of wrong understanding. They do not know what the goal or the purpose (hetu) is, and so they make anything a goal! If they knew the goal, then they would know that this human birth; this human birth in Hindustan (India), is only meant for the attainment of moksha (final liberation). But it is because they do not know of this path to liberation (moksha), they make a goal of anything that comes along, and the goal changes.

Whatever the world’s people do, is all the worldly life (sansar); no matter what they do, it is always worldly life; they never step out of it even once. That is called being engulfed in the non-Self (par-ramanata). Therefore, it is the purpose (hetu) that is important. Only purpose ( hetu) has any value; what is the purpose behind their action. Anything that is done for the purpose of the Atma, no matter what deed or action (kriya) it is, even then it is the goal (hetu) that has any worth; the deed (kriya)is not relevant then.

If your goal (hetu) is for liberation (moksha), and if your aim (hetu) is strong, then you will definitely reach that path. Besides, others have all kinds of goals inside them. They tell you that their goal is to attain moksha. However, internally all their goals are for the worldly life (sansar).

So many cosmic time-cycles (aras) have passed, and even when this fifth time-cycle has come upon you, how can you not be tired of it?! A soul ( jiva) that is eligible (yogya), will find it tiresome. But the passionate soul, really enjoys it, and relishes it! The one who tires of it, will find the path to liberation (moksha) very quickly. And the one who never tires of it will continue to

wander in the bazaars (shops of enticement) all alone! There’s no telling how many more avatars (lifetimes) he will have to keep roaming around in! This is the worldly life (sansar).

The One That Sees the Temporary, Is the Permanent

How does this world work? Who runs it? Why does it run? Who are we? – Until man attains Knowledge (Gnan), these puzzles will not be solved! Can you see how many kinds of puzzles have come about?

Questioner: It is only a puzzle if we believe that it is; otherwise it is not.

Dadashri: ‘If we believe’. That term has become so popular. It is not that exactly. That is because you may believe that it is not a puzzle; however, when you experience it, it then becomes a puzzle. Believing does not last long! You may believe that you have two hundred thousand in your bank, so you write a check, and it will be returned. To believe is not a correct thing. Something that is believed will only stay around for a short time. It does not mean anything. Besides, believing can only apply in certain matters.

Questioner: Does everything, except for the Atma, not only remain for a short time?

Dadashri: Yes, therefore everything is just believed! All these are just wrong beliefs, and they are all temporary adjustments! “All these relatives are temporary adjustments, and the Atma itself is permanent”!

People have taken that which is easily broken and fragile (takalaadi), and believing that it is permanent; have engaged in business with it! Has it ever occurred to you that all these things are fragile (takalaadi)?

Questioner: The entire world is fragile!

Dadashri: Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to tell you. All these relatives are temporary adjustments! And You yourself are permanent! Now, if You yourself are permanent, and these adjustments are all temporary, how can you reconcile the two? Are You not also permanent?

Questioner: How can I tell that?

Dadashri: Do you have a next life (punarjanma) or not? Have you had a past avatar (incarnation; birth; life) or not? You are not even sure of that, are you? But if you believe in reincarnation (punarjanma), then it means that you have become permanent.

Any kind of temporary thing cannot understand another temporary thing: only a permanent thing can understand a temporary thing as temporary. Would you not know that this glass could break? Will these glasses (spectacles) break? Therefore, you are permanent. And these spectacles are only a temporary thing. Only the permanent thing can understand the temporary as temporary. One temporary thing cannot understand another temporary thing. How can the temporary understand the temporary? Therefore, only if it is permanent, can it understand the temporary as temporary. If there were no permanent thing in this world, then would there be any point in calling temporary, temporary? You are able to say temporary, because there is something permanent. Otherwise, would everything not have been temporary? Can your intellect (buddhi) grasp this?

Questioner: Yes, because there is a permanent thing, there is also a temporary thing.

Dadashri: Yes, it is because there is a permanent thing. Based on that, all these other things are considered temporary. And one is able to understand that, this is fragile (takalaadi), this is fragile. The glass cup is fragile. Would you not be able to understand that? If you dropped this copper cup, you would not be too alarmed. But what would happen if you dropped a glass cup?

Questioner: I would be afraid to break a glass cup.

Dadashri: Yes. So the glass cup would be completely smashed, while the copper cup will perhaps get a dent in it, which you will be able to fix and restore to the way it was; however, all of that is temporary. Some may last twenty-five years, some fifteen years. This body may last seventy-five years. All of that is temporary. You yourself are permanent. However, you consider yourself as temporary. ‘I am Chandubhai, I am this body, I am her son’. Those are all misconceptions that I seek to get rid of. Do you want to get rid of your mistakes (wrong beliefs)?

When people call everything temporary, the one calling other things temporary, is himself permanent. Otherwise, the word temporary would not exist. Therefore, this itself proves, that in calling other things temporary, one is himself permanent. But he is not aware of that. Nevertheless, people still say, temporary! Therefore you should find out, that this person may not be aware of it, although he says temporary. And so he himself is permanent. But, him making the mistakes himself is a different matter.

What Are Your Qualities? Mistakes Even in That

This knowledge (gnan) has not been lost. However, if you plus-minus, it is possible that all this knowledge can be recovered, provided that a Gnani Purush shows you the way! Otherwise, it will never enter your imagination; your mind will not grasp it. This is all, ‘how can I earn a living? How can I do that?’ Such issues and money have entirely preoccupied the mind. Therefore, one is indeed permanent, but he himself is not aware of this! Should he not have the awareness of who he is?

Questioner: He would know what his qualities (gunas) are, would he not?

Dadashri: No. No one would know that. There is not a single person who would be aware of his qualities (gunas).

What they consider their own qualities, are in fact the qualities of someone else. All the qualities that you see, are not yours; they are wrongly ascribed (aropit) qualities! They are not your qualities; nevertheless, you say that they are my qualities (gunas).

Questioner: I have a few good qualities (gunas) and I also have some bad qualities.

Dadashri: No. They are both wrongly ascribed qualities (aropit guna). And good qualities and bad qualities are both wrong. They are both cultured qualities ( gunas) and cultured things! These good-bad qualities are not yours at all. Your qualities are something quite different. You have not seen or known a single one of your qualities. Even others have not known their own qualities (gunas). That is why all these people come here, to know their own qualities! This is because they want endless happiness (sukh). They do not want this temporary happiness!

The qualities (gunas) that exist at the present time, are ‘Chandubhai’s qualities; they are not Your qualities. Chandubhai and You are both separate. In this body, even You are separate, and even Chandubhai is separate. ‘We’ see them both as being separate; ‘we’ see Chandubhai and ‘we’ also see You (the Self). So, In truth, really speaking, who you are, is the decision you must take! In this body, Your location (kshetra), is separate. If You reside in Your location, then You are the Knower of your location (kshetragnya). And if you do not reside in your location (kshetra), then you become one with the location (kshetrakaar; Chandubhai). By becoming the Knower (kshetragnya), You have to see what goes on in the location (kshetra)! What does Knower of the location (kshetragnya) mean? It is the one who knows the location. So all You have to do is just keep knowing, What is happening, who is speaking, and all that is what You must know, while remaining in your own location (kshetra) that is all!

To come to the decision, ‘I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)’, itself is called the experience of the Atma (Atmanubhav). And to have that experience of the Atma; is it just any ordinary thing?

The Hidden Self, Wondrous, Wondrous!

So what is worth knowing in this world? What do you think?

Questioner: The form and nature of the Self (Swa-swaroop).

Dadashri: That is all. Except for that, there is nothing else in this world worth knowing. Only the form of the Self (swaroop) is worth knowing.

Questioner: Yes, but what must that wondrous vision (darshan) be?

Dadashri: Wonderful is the hidden form (swaroop)! That which is, completely hidden away from the world, isa hidden form (gupta swaroop). That, which the entire world does not know, is the hidden form which itself is wondrous. Besides, there is no other thing in this world that is wondrous ( adabhoota)! Everything else, you can find. However, that which is a hidden form (gupta swaroop), is the only thing that is wondrous in this world! That is why the writers of scriptures (shastras) have repeatedly said, over and over a thousand times that it is wondrous, wondrous, wondrous!

The Fundamental Mistake Is the Belief

Questioner: But do we not have illusion (bhranti)?

Dadashri: What illusion?

Questioner: Is there not already illusion (bhranti) about the form of the Self (Swa-swaroop)?

Dadashri: But which form (swaroop) of yours has illusion (bhranti) and which form of yours is devoid of illusion? Do

you not know which part has no illusion and which part has illusion? You have not done any kind of separating them at all, have you?

Questioner: What is your definition of illusion (bhranti)? What would you consider as having no illusion?

Dadashri: You yourself (the Self) are eternal and indestructible (avinashi), and even the things that belong to you, are eternal. And to believe that things that are transient and destructible (vinashi) are yours; that is called illusion (bhranti).

Questioner: So would you not call it a kind of ignorance (agnan)?

Dadashri: Massive ignorance! To believe that the foreign department is the home department; is a lot of ignorance (agnan). If there is a foreign department, and you believe that it is the home department, then what would you consider the home department to be? Therefore, one does not know what the home is. How do you benefit from believing that the foreign department is the home department?

Questioner: There is no benefit at all.

Dadashri: Then what harm does it do?

Questioner: If we do not know our real form (swaroop), then everything is harmful.

Dadashri: It is indeed harmful. Your own Self-form (swaroop), is itself the home department. And in the foreign department you have, ‘I am Chandubhai, I am a professor, I am this woman’s husband, I am his uncle, I am fat, I am thin.’ All that keeps ringing in your ears, is called illusion (bhranti). It is okay to say it. But it is the one who is saying these things, in whom you place your faith. You are mixing both, the worldly interaction (vyavahar) and that which is related to the Self (nischay) together, and saying, “I myself am Chandubhai!” O ho ho! Just look at this great Chandubhai! He has got a hold of the completely wrong thing. Can you afford all that? How do you feel?

Questioner: We cannot afford to do that.

Dadashri: So you need some kind of knowledge that will bring an end to this. From this ocean of worldly life (sansar), you cannot see the shore anywhere. There, every so often they will say, ‘Let us go North!’ When you go North, you will meet someone that says, ‘Let us go this way.’ You fool! I have just come from that way. And he will say, ‘never mind that, just come back this way again.’ So that is how he goes on roaming, roaming, roaming, roaming around. But he cannot see the shoreline, the coast or anything, anywhere.

Who Destroys This Illusion?

Anything that disappears in a short time, is called illusion (bhranti). And every day, we make all these illusions stronger. By saying, ‘I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai’ each day, we are creating new illusions, while the old illusions are being erased. If we did not create new illusion, then the old ones would disappear. The nature of everything is that it dissipates and comes to an end (viyogi). Even the nature of illusion (bhranti) is short-lived (viyogi).

Your very own Atma, is who you truly are. But at this point in time, you have illusion (bhranti). Which means that where you yourself are not, you are falsely imputing (aarop) that, ‘I am Chandubhai.’

The Difference between Temporary and Permanent

When a person dies, the things that are temporary and destructible (vinashi), are separated from the things that are permanent (avinashi). The permanent (avinashi) thing in this, is real, which means that it is eternal (sanatan). And all that is relative, is temporary (vinashi).

Questioner: You have said, that everything that is relative, is all temporary (vinashi), and that it is destructible. Now, according to scientists and from the perspective of Hinduism, there is not a single element in this world, which is temporary (vinashi). So what are you referring to when you say, destructible?

Dadashri: That is exactly what I am saying, that no element (tattva) in this world is temporary. And that element is according to the perspective ( drashti) of the element. You have not even seen that element! Do you experience things that are permanent (avinashi) or things that are temporary (vinashi)?

Questioner: Neither permanent nor temporary.

Dadashri: When cups and saucers break, do you say that the cups and saucers are destructible (vinashi), or do you say they are indestructible (avinashi )?

Questioner: I do not call it anything. They are the same thing.

Dadashri: The same? But do all these other people consider it the same? As for everyone else, because cups and saucers break, they consider cups and saucers to be temporary (vinashi).

Questioner: But what is your opinion about the temporary and destructible (vinashi)?

Dadashri: Vinashi means that when you break cups and saucers, you will feel anxiety, or when your clothes catch fire, you feel anxiety. That is why all these things are temporary (vinashi). What about this body, is it permanent (avinashi) or is it temporary (vinashi)?

Questioner: Even the body is not temporary (vinashi).

Dadashri: Is it not temporary? So, all these people do not have the same knowledge as you. All these people have a different kind of knowledge. They all say that the body is temporary (vinashi), and you are saying that the body is not temporary (vinashi). If cups and saucers were to break in your home, would you not feel anything?

Questioner: I am asking you what temporary means, from a scientific point of view.

Dadashri: No. Here, you do not need a scientific viewpoint. You need the viewpoint from worldly interaction (vyavahar). Here in the interaction of the world ( vyavahar), you need the viewpoint of worldly interaction (vyavahar).

I can even tell you what it is from the scientific point of view. The scientific viewpoint says that, ‘In this world, there is no decrease in a single subatomic particle (parmanu).’ No matter how much destruction it undergoes, there is no decrease in a single subatomic particle, and in the same way there is no increase in a single subatomic particle. But if cups and saucers break in people’s houses, does it not cause a commotion? Is there not a fuss when clothes get burnt? If your house were burned down, would you not be distraught? That is why it is called temporary and destructible (vinashi). The Atma does not get burnt in it.

Questioner: Does temporary mean, whether it is only a change of state?

Dadashri: Temporary (vinashi) means the circumstances (avastha) are destroyed. The elemental thing (vastu) itself is not destructible ( vinashi); the element (tattva) is not destructible (vinashi). But it is the circumstances that arise, which get destroyed. Even the people in the world are caught up in the circumstances, and that is why we have to say that they are temporary (vinashi).

If these people go to a doctor and say, ‘Doctor, I have a fever.’ and the doctor says, ‘It is permanent (avinashi).’ then that would be it, the poor man will become very anxious. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

Questioner: Yes, now I understand.

Dadashri: Every circumstance (avastha) is temporary (vinashi). The entire world is immersed in these circumstances. Living in these circumstances, makes it restless. By dwelling in the circumstances, ‘one’ becomes restless (asvastha). Whereas ‘permanently’ dwelling in one’s own Self form ( swaroop), one finds peace and comfort.

Therefore the circumstances (avastha) of things is temporary (vinashi), and the original and fundamental (muda) thing is permanent ( avinashi). Only the Gnani Purush knows about the fundamental element (muda tattva). But people are caught up in circumstances (avastha).

Illusion of the Permanent in the State of the Temporary

Now as long as one has illusion (bhranti), the temporary (vinashi) and the permanent (avinashi) will function as one form. When they both work together, what does one do? ‘I know this, and I am doing this’ is what one says. Therefore, both the states (dharmas) speak together; the state of the temporary and the state of the permanent speak as one. And to speak together, is called illusion (bhranti). Thereafter, ‘I am indeed Chandubhai’, is what he says.

In spite of you yourself being permanent (avinashi), you say, ‘I am Chandubhai’, in a state of unconsciousness. Why is that? It is because both the permanent (avinashi) and the impermanent (vinashi) have come together, and now it has become one. So it is because of this oneness, that illusion (bhranti) has come about.

Questioner: But is illusion not created by the impermanent (avinashi) alone?

Dadashri: No one has created this; the eternal (avinashi) would not create this. Do you understand? This illusion (bhranti) has come about because of scientific causes. Moreover, no one creates illusion (bhranti).

Questioner: If there is both the temporary and the permanent in a person, then would his behavior (vartan) not come only from the permanent? Is it not because only the domination of the permanent prevails?

Dadashri: There is no domination at all by the permanent (avinashi). Even behavior (vartan) does not belong to the eternal (avinashi). The entire domination is of the temporary (vinashi). That is why ‘we’ separate the temporary (vinashi) and the permanent (avinashi) into two separate parts for you.

When ‘we’ destroy all the demerit karma (paap), the two parts come apart and then they are separated. The Atma (Self) thereafter, remains the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta). Therefore, the permanent (avinashi) comes into its original (muda) nature, and that which is temporary (vinashi), remains as actions and deeds (kriya). To know; is not in the nature of the temporary (vinashi). It is not its nature to have feelings or anything like that. Therefore, anything that is temporary (vinashi), remains in the activities (kriya), and the permanent (avinashi) remains the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta); they both retain their own natures (swabhav). What does one do in illusion (bhranti)? ‘I know and I am doing’, and that is why all these weaknesses of anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh) have arisen.

The Absolute Soul Sends Light and Eternal Bliss

Questioner: So what function does the permanent (avinashi) perform, while staying with the temporary (vinashi)?

Dadashri: It just gives the light (prakash), nothing else. It possesses infinite light; it gives light. And it also gives bliss (anand). But that bliss does not reach you, it becomes falsely projected. And how do you use that bliss? You do not believe that that bliss is coming from within you and that is why you say that you got the pleasure from this jalebi (dessert). You do this false projection of the source of pleasure and that is why you say that you find pleasure in the jalebi. But it does not come from the jalebi; it comes from within you, that is being projected.

Therefore, nothing can give bliss (anand), there is no bliss in gold or anything else. If there were bliss in gold, if you made a mattress out if it, would you be able to sleep well on it?

Questioner: No, you would not.

Dadashri: Therefore, happiness (anand) does not lie in gold. We create this happiness (anand) from imagination (kalpana), thinking there is joy (anand) in this and there is enjoyment in that; so it appears that way. Thus the fundamental (muda) real happiness is forfeited. For ‘us’, it is the true, direct bliss (anand) that ‘we’ experience. ‘We’ constantly dwell in the true bliss; that bliss is the very nature of the Self (swabhavik), which is natural and one’s own. And all this bliss (anand) is imaginary (kalpit), and this happiness and pleasure ( sukh) is imaginary. And even unhappiness (dukh) is imaginary (kalpit).

Worship of the Nature of the Self Procures Bliss of the Self

That is why ‘we’ separated the Atma, so that you can enter into your own natural bliss (swabhavik sukh). Thereafter, you do not have worries or anxiety. Because why do you have worries? You have them because you say, ‘I am Chandubhai’ and ‘I am the one doing this’ – that is why you have worries! Is man capable of doing anything? Is he doing it or, ‘it just happens’?

Questioner: Does, ‘it happens’ mean that you cannot do anything yourself?

Dadashri: Yes, that is it. When one tries to do it himself, the illusion (bhranti) arises, and because he then becomes the doer (karta), the worries occur. Now do you understand? You yourself are a non-doer (akarta), but you have assumed the state of doer (karta), and having assumed the state of the doer, you now assume the state of the sufferer (bhokta); because you went out to do, you became the sufferer. And that is why there is worry, anxiety and trouble, all day long. Therefore, even if someone insults you, you feel hurt.

The reason why, I have to give you this Gnan (Knowledge) is so that you, come into your own nature (swabhav). Thereafter, the Atma (the Self), will stay in the Atma, and the anatma (non-Self), will remain in the anatma. In every jiva (living entity), there is chetan (Soul), and all it does, is gives light; it does nothing else.

All this that is temporary (vinashi), is relative, and “All these relatives are temporary adjustments, and you are real and permanent.” However, the temporary and the permanent have both become integrated. ‘We’ separate the two, by placing a line of demarcation between them, so you have, “This is that and this is not that.”

Questioner: What happens to the permanent (avinashi) when it separates from the temporary (vinashi)?

Dadashri: Then one no longer has these miseries (dukh). A person does not have these miseries of sansar (the worldly life) any longer of, ‘this is what happened, that is what happened.’ And even when it is time to die, he is not afraid; even when his pocket is picked, he feels no grief (dukh); even if his wife swears at him he feels no grief – he feels no unhappiness (dukh) whatsoever! Therefore, when the permanent (avinashi) separates from the temporary (vinashi), they both remain in their own nature (swabhav). What else could happen?

Questioner: For someone who has had this separation, what happens to him after death?

Dadashri: After death, he still has one more avatar (birth; lifetime) left. That is because, if he abides by the Five Agnas ‘we’ give him, there is one avatar still left for him.

So Stands the Nature of the World

Questioner: There are so many things about the workings of this world I do not understand, such as those who have come and received Atmagnan (Self-realization) from you, so why does it not happen to others?

Dadashri: This is not for everyone.

This is how it is: the whole world is like a flowing stream. So however much joins the sea, that much water becomes free (mukti), while the rest of it will find freedom, as it gets there. Therefore, this entire world is in the form of a flowing stream, which is why not everyone will attain this immediately.

Questioner: Why is it that some pebbles reach the ocean, while some stay in the middle?

Dadashri: It all depends on scientific circumstantial evidences. So as long as there is illusion (bhranti), it does not find freedom (mukti).

Doership Itself Is Illusion

Questioner: All these people have illusion (bhranti), so how do we get rid of this illusion? Show us.

Dadashri: What is the illusion about? Do you understand that?

Questioner: One has not known oneself.

Dadashri: That is all; just that much of an illusion has arisen. One has become unconscious of oneself, and that is why one has illusion (bhranti), there is no other illusion.

Questioner: By what means can we get rid of this illusion (bhranti) that exists? Bless us with that understanding.

Dadashri: One is the doer (karta) of karma, so therefore he is the sufferer (bhokta) of that karma. What is that? It means that one gives support to the karma by saying, ‘I did this.’ In this world, it is not possible at all for any living being (jiva) to do anything. To say, ‘I am doing’, is illusion (bhranti) itself, and that itself is egoism (ahamkar). This is the ego showing itself. Otherwise, all of this is, ‘it happens’. Everything just happens. While this is happening one says, ‘I did it. I am doing it.’ This is all just happening. Even if he does not do a thing, he will still get a nice breakfast and everything, when he wakes up in the morning.

Now, by what means do we remove this illusion (bhranti)? If a Gnani Purush makes him know, ‘who he himself is’, then that illusion will go away, that is all. Therefore, if one finds a Gnani Purush, then the illusion (bhranti) will leave.

In this world, when the two intents (bhaav) of, ‘I am doing’ and ‘I know’, are made together, it is called illusion (bhranti). ‘We’ (the Gnani Purush) do not have the awareness of, ‘I am doing’ at all. Ever since ‘we’ attained the awareness of the Atma (Self), the awareness of ‘I am doing’ has never occurred. Moreover, ‘I’ am no longer the owner of this body. For the last twenty-five years, ‘I’ have not had the ownership of this mind, speech and body.

Not Heard, Not Believed, Not Known the Atma, Then…

Therefore, the Atma is something different. To know the Atma, would be to know the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), and he that has known the Parmatma, has indeed attained liberation (moksha)!

All this is in order to know the Atma. And if you have not

known the Atma, then the Atma is there for you to believe in (faith). You should believe in the Atma; ‘I am Atma’, is the conviction (pratiti) that you should have. And if you fail to attain that, then the Atma is there to be heard or listened, so that everyday you should keep listening to talk or discussions about the Atma.

Therefore, the writers of scriptures (shastras) have written, that ‘he that has not heard, believed or known the Atma, is not at all worthy for the path of liberation.’ So if you understand this, you will find a solution; otherwise, you will not find a solution.

The Gnani Dissolves Spiritual Darkness

For the last twenty-five hundred years, this country has been in darkness. One or two Gnanis have appeared in that time but all that light ( Gnan – Knowledge) cannot reach everywhere. Whereas this light reaches you, having crossed all the layers of the mind and all the layers of the intellect (buddhi). Those in foreign countries have not even scratched the surface of (entered the layers) of the mind. They are still involved in activities at the level of the effect or discharging mind (nischetan-mun). They have not even discovered the charging or the living mind ( chetan-mun). They have not heard about it, nor do they have a need for it. If you told these foreigners today, that there is Atma inside, they might be able to understand more or less, that there is some kind of element (tattva) present. But they would not believe that it is the Atma; however, they would concede that there is something else there. If you tell them that there is reincarnation (punarjanma); they will not accept it.

So you only have to know the Atma. In Hindustan (India), what do all the religions say? That you should know that Atma. There is no talk about the Atma in foreign countries. In foreign countries they say, ‘I am William; I myself am William’, they will say. As long as they do not believe in reincarnation (punarjanma), they will not have the awareness of the Atma.

Those that do believe in reincarnation would know about the Atma; that ‘my Atma is separate and I am separate’.

And the Atma is one of those things that no one has ever found. Only those with Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnanis) have found it; if you say that, it would be fine. And those who became Absolutely Enlightened (the Kevalis), did so by doing the devotional worship (darshan) of those with Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnanis). However the real discovery was made by the One is with Absolute Knowledge (the Keval Gnanis) – the Tirthankars.

Therefore, the Atma is something that is not possible to find. How can one find the Atma in this body? The Atma is such a thing that it can pass through houses; it can even pass through thousands of walls. So how is it possible for one to find the Atma inside this body?

The Gnani Gives the Experience of the Atma

Questioner: So then worldly people can never attain the Atma?

Dadashri: It is nothing like that. You yourself are Atma. But you yourself do not have the awareness of how I am the Atma! Otherwise, you are yourself the Atma.

When the Gnani Purush gives you Atmagnan (Self-realization), how does he give it? He places a “line of demarcation” between illusory knowledge (bhrant-gnan) and this Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan); between this knowledge of the non-Self (jada gnan) and knowledge of the Self (chetan Gnan). Thereafter, there is no likelihood of the mistake ever occurring again. And the Atma will continue to remain in one’s awareness; not even for a moment will that awareness disappear.

Even at this very moment, both the natures and functions (dharmas) of the Atma (Self) and the non-Atma (anatma – non-Self) are very separate. But for you, both their results come out together, that is why you find it tasteless. The end mixture of the functions (dharmas) of both, renders it tasteless. And for the Gnani Purush, the results of the Self (chetan) remain separate, and the results of the non-Self (anatma) remain separate; both streams, run separately, which is why he constantly remains in absolute bliss ( parmanand).

It is like this: eating, drinking, bathing, getting up, sleeping, waking; are all the functions or roles (dharma) of the body. And people are all enmeshed in the functions of the body. Not even once, has one entered into the true nature (dharma) of the Atma (Self). And if one had entered into the true nature of the Atma, just even for a second, he would never have moved away from Bhagwan’s side, ever.

Constant Uninterrupted Thoughts About the Atma Are Useful

Questioner: Should a living being (jiva) do thinking?

Dadashri: About what?

Questioner: Should one think about what he has heard from you or what he may have read?

Dadashri: Yes. By thinking, you would have to extract the meaning.

Questioner: So is thinking necessary?

Dadashri: Yes, there is a need; but only to a certain extent.

The way it is, is that this thinking only needs to be done until one attains the Atma, and after that, there is no more thinking. That is because thinking is the function (dharma) of the mind. Therefore, after you have attained the true nature of the Soul (Atmadharma), you no longer need the nature of the mind (manodharma). Thereafter, you no longer need: the nature of the body (dehadharma), the nature of the mind (manodharma), the nature (dharma) of the intellect (buddhi), the nature of the inner working complex comprised of the mind, intellect, chit and ego (antahkaran); or any kind of dharma (states of nature or religion).And that is because you have attained your own true nature of the Self (swadharma).

Questioner: So after entering the nature of the Self (swadharma) do we need anything?

Dadashri: After entering the nature of the Self, you have no need for anything else. All these mahatmas have come into the nature of the Self ( swadharma).Therefore, they have no need for thought. As long as one has notcome into the nature of the Self, there is a need for thinking.

Questioner: Because Krupadudev (Kramic Gnani) has said, ‘Kar vichaar toh paam (if you think, you will attain)’.

Dadashri: Yes, ‘if you think, you will attain’ he said. However, those thoughts are all layers of coverings (avaran). Nevertheless, what Krupadudev has said, is correct. Those are very elevated thoughts; they are not like the thoughts worldly people think about.

Questioner: No, no. Not those thoughts; only thoughts about the Atma.

Dadashri: That is all, only thoughts related to the Atma. And even so, what kind of thoughts? Those whose link does not get broken. So the thinking process is uninterrupted. Only when your thoughts are like that, do you understand perhaps some of what the Atma is all about. Otherwise, the Atma is very difficult to understand. And if you find a Gnani Purush, it is possible to attain the Atma very easily.

All these mahatmas have already attained the Atma. And they can all see your Atma. Through a divine vision (divya chakshu), they can all see your Atma.

Once the nature of the Self (swadharma) has been attained, there is no need for the nature of the mind (manodharma), so there is no need for any kind of religion (dharma); therefore, there is no association or identification with the body (dehadhyas).

Questioner: We still cannot get rid of our connection with the body (dehadhyas).

Dadashri: How can you get rid of the connection with the body (dehadhyas) through identification with the body (dehadhyas)? You want to release your connection to the body (dehadhyas), yet you are involved with the body (dehadhyas), so how can that happen? Dehadhyas cannot be removed with dehadhyas. Krupadudev had said to go to such a Gnani, who has become a savior (tarantaaran), and you will find the solution.

He Cannot Be A Giver of Moksha If He Does Not Give Moksha

Questioner: Must there not be some keys to know the Atma?

Dadashri: There are no keys or anything. All you have to do is go to a Gnani Purush and say to him, ‘I have no sense at all, I am a fool. I have been wandering for endless lives, but I have not known even a fraction’s worth, or even a hair’s worth of the Atma. So bestow upon me, at least this much.’ Then that is all, your work is done. That is because the Gnani Purush has come to give you the gift of liberation – moksha.

Then people complain, ‘so what will become of our worldly interaction (vyavahar)?’ After knowing the Atma, the rest is considered worldly interaction (vyavahar). And even for the interaction in the world, the Gnani Purush gives you Five Agnas (special directives) telling you, ‘son, follow these Five Agnas of mine. Go, your worldly interaction is now pure (shuddha), and your resolve (nischay; the Self) is pure (shuddha), and all the responsibility is ‘ours’ (the Gnani’s).’

And you should experience liberation (moksha) right here. If you cannot experience it from here, then it is not real moksha. After meeting ‘us’ here, if you do not experience moksha after that, then that Gnani is not real, and neither is the moksha real. You should experience moksha, here in this very fifth ara (age of the time cycle). Right here, in your coat and hat, you should experience moksha . There is no telling what you may experience over there (the next life). Therefore, you need to ascertain from the Gnani Purush, how you yourself are the Atma.

Relentless Mistake in the Definition of the Self Through the Ages

Questioner: I feel, what is the hurry in trying to determine what the form (swaroop) of the Atma is?

Dadashri: Yes, there is no need to rush. Here, you can ask however many questions you want to. ‘We’ are ready to give you explanations. Whatever decision you wish to make, you can make here. However before you make the decision, only at that time, you must be certain. Once you have made the decision, there is no need for certainty. So there is no need for you to rush into making any decisions. That is because it is a mistake of endless lifetimes that needs to be destroyed. This is a mistake that has not been destroyed for infinite lifetimes, and it is this mistake that needs to be destroyed. And what is the mistake that has been made for countless avatars? For infinite past lives, you have made the mistake in determining, what the nature of the Atma is, and that mistake needs to be destroyed. So there is no need to rush into it, is there?

This nature (swaroop) of the Atma is something that will not come into your vision (drashti). Now, your own knowledge knows it to a certain extent; however, the nature of the Atma is much further than that. Therefore even your own knowledge cannot reach there. Where your vision does not reach; where your own knowledge does not reach – that is your own Self form (swaroop); that is the form of the AtmaAtma swaroop.

Therefore, to know, ‘Who am I?’ is indeed one’s own Self form (swaroop). And that, only the Gnani Purush alone, can make you realize. Then there can be no dying or taking birth. After that, the dying; it is the body that dies; the Self does not die. And within one or two lives ( avatar) there is final liberation (moksha).

All Instruments of Freedom Have Become a Bondage

Questioner: Can you show us the means (sadhan) with which we can attain Atmagnan (Self-realization)?

Dadashri: There are many ways (sadhano). But the soul (jiva) has itself become trapped in the ways. People become dogmatic and stuck on a single viewpoint (abhinivesh) in the very instrument (sadhan) that they have. As long as a person is aware and alert enough, not to let any kind of disease set in, then he might make some progress. However, people are just trapped in sadhano (instruments; means; tools, i.e. scriptures, rituals), and they become dogmatic. Therefore, if you meet a Gnani Purush, who has become liberated, he will help free you as well. Or else, if until then, you can remain with a sant purush (saint), then there is no other better merit karma (punya) than that. Otherwise, how is one to escape from the heat of the three-fold sufferings (trividh taap): mental suffering (aadhi), physical suffering (vyadhi) and affliction from external sources (upadhi) in the worldly life (sansar)? Nevertheless you will find some cooling comfort, when the saints sprinkle water on you.

Questioner: Then how can you move forward without the support of any sadhan (instrument; means, i.e. scriptures, rituals)? Would you not need some sort of sadhan?

Dadashri: All the sadhano (instruments; means, i.e. scriptures, rituals) have become a bondage (bandhan). Who has bound you? The sadhano themselves have bound you. All the sadhano that people have created, are the sadhano that have bound them.

Questioner: So to move forward, what sort of thoughts should we have? And how can we get out of this mess?

Dadashri: This is how it is: if someone says, ‘Did you see the flower in the sky?’ Then what would you say?

Questioner: ‘That is an illusion’, is what I would say.

Dadashri: Then this here is the Atma, how can you find it? It is not a thing of the imagination.

Therefore, how will you know the Atma? The Atma itself is science (vignan). And all the sadhano (means; tools; instruments, i.e. scriptures, rituals) that you come up with, the instruments of knowledge that you resort to; even that knowledge has dried up and it does not give results (shushka gnan). So, there you have to do everything in it. Whereas, science itself works on its own and produces results (kriyakari), and it does all the work; you do not have to do anything. And through science, it is possible to find the Atma. There is no other way (sadhan ) through which you can find the Atma. I have shown you the way (sadhan). Now will you do this science?

Questioner: I did not understand. What science?

Dadashri: The science of Self-realization (Atmavignan). Atmavignan means the science (vignan) of attaining the Atma. You can only attain the Atma, if you have this science. Otherwise, there is always the knowledge about how to attain the Atma in the scriptures; however, with that knowledge it is not possible for you to attain the Atma. That is because the Atma is not in the form of words, that it can be recorded in the scriptures. It is wordless (nihshabda), inexpressible (avaktavya), and indescribable (avarniya). It is nothing like the way people have imagined it to be. They just go on believing it in their minds, and that is how they carry on the whole day and night, drifting aimlessly, and wandering around for infinite lifetimes, without even losing a single avatar (lifetime).

‘I-ness’ Cannot End Through Your Efforts

Dadashri: What is your name?

Questioner: Chandubhai.

Dadashri: Are you convinced that you are really Chandubhai?

Questioner: People have given me my name.

Dadashri: So then, what are you really? Do you not say, ‘My name is Chandubhai’? Then who is the one that says ‘my’?

Questioner: That is what I am searching for. ‘Who am I?’ is what I search for.

Dadashri: How long have you been searching for that?

Questioner: For two years.

Dadashri: Were you not searching before? Why?

Questioner: I did not need to, and I did not have that kind of understanding.

Dadashri: Goodness! You didn’t understand that you needed to know this knowledge! That is fine. That is why this knowledge, ‘Who am I’, is what you need to know. If you know that, then everything will be resolved. Now in this, Chandubhai is your name. But who are you?

Questioner: I am actually a human being.

Dadashri: Human, because that is what the body looks like; therefore you can only call it human. The form of the body is truly human. But you would not be considered human. Is this your body?

Questioner: The body is not mine.

Dadashri: Does this body not affect you? Do you feel cold? Or do you feel warm?

Questioner: It is the body that experiences that.

Dadashri: The body experiences it, but you do not experience it, do you? You do experience the effects of this body, do you not? What are you affected by? You can feel the effects of whatever is yours. Anything that is not yours, will not affect you. Can you comprehend this? Therefore, what is it that affects you? It is something that you believe is yours. You are affected by it when you say, ‘this body is mine’. Even in sleep, you have this awareness. Even in your sleep, you say, ‘this body is mine. This name is mine’. So, when it is yours, is it something we can just let go?

Therefore, this I (hoo) is not something that you are likely to be free of. The ‘I’ is the biggest ghost. Many say, ‘this body is not mine, this is not my son, this is not my wife; no one is mine.’ This is the kind of fruitless hassle they do. Nevertheless, ultimately you are there of course, are you not? Now where will you go? And where do you throw this mind, speech and body? Where will you throw this body? All other forms of material things can be discarded, but how are you going to discard this one? If one goes to the Gnani Purush, the Gnani Purush will free him.

Will the Endeavor to Understand be Fruitful?

Questioner: I am also actually trying to understand the Atma.

Dadashri: When will that attempt to understand occur? If you are Chandubhai, how will you try to understand? And really, you are not Chandubhai at all. Chandubhai is your name. You are this boy’s father; that too is a worldly interaction (vyavahar). Besides, we accept all that anyway. What is new

in that? It is a tool (sadhan) for identification. Therefore, who you are, is something you need to find out from the Gnani Purush; it is something you must realize.

Have You Received Another’s Mail?

Dadashri: You certainly are convinced that, ‘I am Chandubhai’!

Questioner: No, that is a name people commonly use. However, ‘I am Atma’, that is all, nothing else.

Dadashri: Yes, you are Atma. But if someone swears at Chandubhai, do you not accept his ‘mail’? If you do, then you are Chandubhai. Then you cannot say that it is just what people call you. When it is Chandubhai who gets sworn at, why do you accept the mail? Therefore, you have become Chandubhai.

Questioner: To live in interaction with the world (vyavahar) you have to do everything.

Dadashri: No. You have to live in worldly interaction (vyavahar). However, you are not supposed to accept Chandubhai’s mail. You can say, ‘Dear man, this is Chandubhai’s mail. I have no problems. You can swear as much as you like.’ But as it is, you live as Chandubhai. You take all of Chandubhai’s winnings, and then you say, ‘I am Atma’. So would it be possible to become the Atma, just like that?

Detachment to the Worldly Life Attained With Grace

Dadashri: How can you become certain that you are Atma?

Questioner: For that, we would go to a guru, such as yourself, where we can discover how the body and the Atma are separate, from the spiritual discourses that we have heard. Besides, is there not a big difference between us and you? We, being the worldly people (sansari), who are immersed in illusory attachment (moha-maya)….

Dadashri: And are ‘we’ (the Gnani) not worldly people (sansari)? Even ‘we’ are worldly people (sansari). Whoever in this world uses the lavatory, is a worldly being (sansari). Everyone needing to use the toilet, and who goes to look for one, are all considered worldly people ( sansari).

Questioner: But is it possible for anyone like us who live in the worldly life (sansar) to attain Knowledge of the Soul (Atmagnan)?

Dadashri: This is how it is: there are two kinds of worldly life (sansar). The one who renounces worldly life (tyaagi) is also the worldly life (sansar), and a family man’s world (grahasthi) is also the worldly life. Both are a type of worldly life. The one who renounces (tyaagi ), lives by the knowledge, ‘I have renounced this, I have renounced that’. And the family man (grahasthi – those living worldly life), lives by the knowledge, ‘I am taking this, I am giving this, I have to acquire that’. However if they know the Atma, they will then have liberation (moksha).

Questioner: But in spite of living in the worldly life (sansar), and fulfilling the duties of the worldly life, is it still possible to remain detached from it?

Dadashri: That is precisely what the Gnani Purush has. The Gnani Purush gives you the science that he has and thereafter, you are able to do things for the worldly life (sansar), as well as things for the Atma. That is the kind of science that the Gnani Purush has.

I am able to carry on a conversation with you. Therefore, I can live in the worldly life (sansar), and I can also live in my own Self (the Atma). I can do both. I can even perform all the kriya (activities) that I need to, in the worldly life (sansar). It is possible to live in the worldly life and to also live in the Atma. The Gnani Purush has all the science (vignan) that you cannot find in the scriptures (shastras). As far as the shastras are concerned, you can only become free, if you renounce everything.

How can people live with one another, pass their days, and live in such a way that they do not bind karma? I will teach you all the ways. With the knowledge that I will give you, you will no longer have karmas that attach (lepayman) on to you. Just like the lotus remains untouched ( nirlep) on the water, I will show you the same state of being untouchable (nirlepta).

So from where do you learn about the Atma? From the Gnani Purush. The gnanis of the scriptures (shastras) do not have this Atma. If they have attained the Atma, then they would have enlightenment and the right belief and vision (samkit), and to have the right belief means that the worldly life (sansar) does not touch you, in spite of your living in the worldly life, and such a state is attainable by the grace (krupa) of the Gnani Purush.

Confusion Disperses With Complete Explanations

Many only include the Atma in their spiritual teachings (updesha). They blow in your ear and make you say, ‘I am Atma’. Hey you! But what does the Atma mean? Moreover, if ‘I am the Atma’, then what is everything else? Would that sort of question not ever arise? Here however, we say, “By relative viewpoint, it is this, and by real viewpoint, it is this. You should say both.” According to them, there is no such thing as viewpoint, so they are in a rut on both sides. The blowing in the ear, may last a short while. But later, one becomes confused again. Should a railway line not be parallel? Or would it do if it were crooked? You can turn it crookedly if you want to, you can turn it around in a circle, but make sure that you keep both the real and the relative lines parallel.

Forgetting the Self in Relation

So this Chandubhai is only meant to be employed for worldly interaction (vyavahar). ‘You’ yourself have always been real, but you became relative. Because so many relations came about, illusion (bhranti) has set in for you. And then you say, ‘I am Chandubhai’, and that is called egoism.

The Belief About Atma Changed

Questioner: What is real and relative? How are they related?

Dadashri: Everything that is relative (sapeksha), is temporary (vinashi). In English, sapeksha is translated as relative. And all these relatives are temporary adjustments, and the real is the permanent. They call the absolute and independent (nirpeksha), permanent. Relative ( sapeksha) means that it relies on something else; it lives with the support of other things.

There is light because there is darkness. Otherwise, who calls the light, light? If there was always light, then who would call it light? Therefore, it is in relation to darkness that we have light. And why do we have darkness? It is in relation to light that we have darkness. And that is called relative ( sapeksha). Anything that has expectation (apeksha), is called relative (sapeksha). And that relative is temporary; always changing. A real is a permanent thing.

In this world, there are six eternal elements that are permanent. Out of the six eternal elements, the pure Self, the Atma (chetan), is permanent, and the rest of them do not have the Self (chetan). Nevertheless, those five are still permanent, and they possess infinite kinds of intrinsic properties (gunadharma). Only this relative intent (bhaav) has come about due to the intrinsic properties of all of them. The Atma always remains as the Atma; it always remains in the form of Atma (chetan). It has never changed, not even for a moment has it ever changed. Only the belief is wrong.

What you are, is not the belief you have, and what you are not, is the belief that has set in. They are all wrong beliefs. And all these beliefs are relative, not real.

Questioner: To get to the real stage, what does one have to do?

Dadashri: You have to realize the real. When ‘we’ give you this Gnan; that is when you realize the real.

Liberation Demands Siddhantik Understanding

Questioner: But in the book it tells you to apply your mind to the Atma, and you will find liberation.

Dadashri: Yes, but only after you know the Atma, can you apply it. Unless you realize the Atma, who would you call Atma? Isn’t it also written that the Atma cannot be burned, or that it cannot be drenched with water?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Then nowadays, there are even watches which are, waterproof and fireproof. So what I am trying to say is that do you not get watches like that now? The Atma is not like that. The Atma is an abode of infinite attributes (gunas), and it is itself the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). When it comes into the state of the Kevali (the Ones with Absolute Knowledge), it is considered the Absolute Soul; however, when it is not in the state of Absolute Knowledge, and it is in the form of words, it is then called the interim stage (antaratma; the awakened Self). If it has dependency on words, it is called the interim state Soul (antaratma). But there is not a lot of difference between the interim state of the Soul and the Absolute Soul. The interim Soul (antaratma) is on its way to becoming the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), whereas the other has already become the Absolute Soul – that is the only difference.

Questioner: In many of the verses in the scriptures

(shastras), it is said that by making it a daily practice to read specific verses, you can enjoy all the pleasures of the worldly life ( sansar), and attain the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). If that is the case, why even make an effort to attain Atmagnan (Self-realization)?

Dadashri: It is like this: it shows you a way, that if you have bound merit karma (punya), you will climb higher, so that one day you may find a path towards attaining Self-realization (Atmagnan). But if all one has bound, is demerit karma (paap), how will he find this path? So it was to encourage people, that this was said. However, this is not the exact reason.

Religion(dharma) should always be siddhantik. Siddhantik means that it never gives rise to any controversy, and it gives results. It is siddhant (irrefutable Truth), if it gives immediate results. If not, if it does not yield immediate results, how can you call it siddhant (an irrefutable doctrine)? Anything that becomes (siddha) accomplished, means that it has come to an end, and it will not have to be made siddha again. For always, it remains siddha (accomplished); throughout past, present and future times (trikaad)– that is referred toas siddhant.

The Atma is the Self.If you have realized the Self, then you have realized the world. When you know the Atma, the ego (ahamkar ) and the ‘my-ness’ (mamata), both disappear together. They leave at a time.

Say you have your own home, which you like very much. But you are in debt and you have to sell it. After you have sold it and taken the money for it, will the ‘my-ness’ (mamata), not be gone the following day?

Questioner: Yes, it will be gone.

Dadashri: Why? It was your house for forty years. What if after selling it, it burns down, would you feel any grief (dukh)?

Questioner: No, I would not.

Dadashri: That is because your ‘my-ness’ (mamata) is gone. In the same way, the moment you know the Atma, the ego (ahamkar) and the ‘my-ness’ ( mamata) disappear simultaneously.

A State of Bliss Prevails in the State of the Self

You yourself are the Absolute Soul (Parmatma), but since you do not have the awareness, what can you do? Until then, you behave in the awareness that you have. ‘I am Chandubhai’ is the only belief you have; ‘I am Chandubhai, I am this woman’s husband’. And it is these kinds of wrong beliefs that you dwell in.

Questioner: Is that not how all the living beings (jivas) in the worldly life (sansar) recognize each other? That is why everyone calls me Chandubhai.

Dadashri: Chandubhai is just a way for identifying you in worldly interaction (vyavahar), and there is nothing wrong with that. If someone asks me, ‘What is your name?’ I would say, ‘Ambalal.’ But ‘I’, not even in my dreams would believe that, ‘I am Ambalal’. Whereas you, not just in your dreams, but even while awake, go around believing that, ‘I am Chandubhai’. Now, ‘I am Chandubhai’, is the wrong belief that gives you problems. And I remain in the awareness of the Self (swa-bhaan), in my own Self form (swa-swaroop), so I am constantly in a state of bliss (samadhi); maintaining oneness with the Self. When I enter the state of the Self (swa-swaroop), the constant state of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) occurs with it, and the energy (shakti) of the Absolute Soul, manifests. Right now it is Chandubhai’s energy (shakti) that is being expressed. Since you have come into the human form, Chandubhai’s energies have manifested; however, more of the energies of human beings have not yet manifested. They are being dissipated in the ordinary human life.

In This Time, Do Efforts Pay Off?

Questioner: Does one have to make any effort for that?

Dadashri: You will not be able to make that effort. That is because you yourself lack unity in your thoughts, speech and actions; you have become unsteady (vyagra; lack of unity in mind, speech and actions), so you will not be able to try. Only if you have absolute unity of thought, speech and action ( ekagra), will I be able to show you. But in this age (kaad), a person cannot maintain that kind of unity (ekagra). Besides how can a person maintain unity of thought, speech and body (ekagra) in this era of the time-cycle; in such tumult, in such a time of upheaval? Therefore, I destroy your demerit karma (paap) first, and then I instill the right belief in you.

Questioner: Is it necessary to practice focused attention and concentration (ekagrata) to make progress?

Dadashri: The way it is, is that there are remedies that do involve focused attention (ekagrata), which are helping. Nothing in this world is wrong. All these things are helping. But if you want to become completely independent, there should be intense desire to experience the Self. Sugar is sweet – what does sweet mean? Your focus and awareness should be only on this. To realize the ultimate, one will have to come here (to the Gnani Purush). Otherwise there are all these other things you can resort to, and they are stepping (gradual ascent towards the Self).

Not Action, but Awareness Needs to Be Changed

Questioner: How can people who are caught up in the responsibilities of the worldly life (sansar), attain the Atma?

Dadashri: Chandubhai and the Atma are both completely separate. And they display their own different qualities and functions (gunadharma). If one comes to understand this from the Gnani Purush, then all his responsibilities in the worldly life (sansar) will be carried out nicely, and even this too will carry on well. Even Gnanis, eat, drink, bathe, and do everything. They do the same kind of activities (kriya) that you do; however, they have the awareness (bhaan) of ‘I am not the doer’. Whereas, in the state of ignorance (agnan) the awareness (bhaan) that prevails, is ‘I am the doer’. So the difference is only in the awareness (bhaan).

No Adversity in Development Towards the Atma

Questioner: Why does it seem that although I have an internal desire, the difficulties I face in the work related to progress towards the Atma (Self), are greater?

Dadashri: There is never any difficulty in work related to progress towards the Atma. Only that one does not have the internal desire. If there is an internal desire, then there is never any difficulty in the work of progression towards the Atma. This is really because one has more love towards the worldly life; there is attraction there. That is why you feel the difficulty. Besides, attaining the Atma is natural, easy and simple. How long can it take for the Atma to turn homeward?

I asked a farmer, ‘When you take your buffalo from here to the farm, what kind of temperament does he have?’ And he replied, ‘When we take him to the farm, he walks very slowly.’ ‘And on the way back home?’ So he says, ‘Home? He understands that he is going home, so he walks ever so fast!’ In the same way, when the Atma knows that it is going to the final liberation (moksha), it moves really fast. It is going to its own home! And everywhere else, it moves slowly, as though it is being goaded there.

Take Advantage of the Living Gnani Purush

Questioner: How much strong endeavor (purusharth) is required to attain the state that is beyond the body (deha)? And how much of it is God’s grace ( krupa)?

Dadashri: God’s grace will bring all the circumstances together. When there is God’s grace (krupa), in order to attain the state that is beyond the body ( dehatita), one will come across someone whose state is beyond the body (dehatita purush), who will help him attain the state that is beyond the body. However, even though he may be in a state that is beyond the body, he will not be able to help you attain the state of being beyond the body. Only rarely, will you come across such a Gnani Purush who can make you attain the state that is beyond the body (dehatita). Otherwise to become dehatita, is not an easy thing!

Questioner: So that you can attain God’s grace (krupa), to attain the state that is beyond the body (dehatita), what sort of strong self-effort ( purusharth) do we do, and how much of that effort must we make?

Dadashri: It is because of your strong endeavor (purusharth), that you have met me. Whatever strong endeavor (purusharth) you had made; you must have made a good strong endeavor for us to have come together. Now that we have met, you should know how to reap some kind of benefit. Here, you will receive whatever you ask for. People look for things in their own language; they look for things that they can understand. You are asking for the attainment of the state which is beyond the body (dehatita), and that state of beyond the body can be attained right here. People are not even aware that there is such a state as a state beyond the body. There are very few people that seek the state of dehatita. They are not around.

Seeking Without Understanding, To What Avail?

Questioner: But is the direct experience not of the Atma only attained after you have undergone many, many penances and other rituals?

Dadashri: No. Even if you accomplished a lot of penance,

you can still take birth as a donkey. Because Dadar station was only half a mile away, why did you roam for twenty-two miles? You ruined the road. So go become a donkey! It was only half a mile away, but you traveled twenty-two miles, and even then Dadar did not arrive, but some other town came instead. Then one will say, ‘I did travel for twenty-two miles, so at least I gained the benefit of the twenty-one and a half miles!’ But the response will be, ‘No, you are the one who traveled, and so you have to pay for the wear and tear of our road.’ Therefore you have to pay a penalty. So this is how it is! TheAtma is not easy to attain, and no one has ever found the Atma. Everyone will say, ‘I am the Atma (Brahmaswaroop). I am the Atma.’ But you will know, as soon as you insult him. He will immediately strike back.

Obstructive Causes in Spirituality

Questioner: Does race, caste, religious sects (pantha) and all that, create an obstruction to the direct experience of the Atma (Atma-sakshatkar)?

Dadashri: Nothing obstructs it. Anyone can attainthe directexperience of the Atma (Atma-sakshatkar).

Questioner: No, but surely would all these religious sects (pantha), and race or caste (jaati) not present an obstacle?

Dadashri: They are an obstruction as long as the egoism (ahamkar) of race or caste (jaati) exists. The egoism of belonging to a religious sect, and the egoism of belonging to a particular race or caste, is all obstructive. And if one manages to extricate himself, and finds himself a Gnani Purush, then his problems will be resolved. Besides, these dogmatic people in religious sects still have a lot of wandering to do. That is because in the realm of the Lord, there is no need for opinion (matt), race (jaat), or anything else. There is no need for any religious sect, or even attire.

Questioner: Do the karmic layers of coverings (avaran), starting from clothes to children; present an obstacle to spirituality?

Dadashri: None of those things are really an obstacle. But since there is so much pressure from them, they are obstructive to a certain degree. And to a certain degree, they are not obstructive; there are some such limits. There is nothing that obstructs me. Whatever I wear, and all that I possess, none of them hinder me. Besides, even if they took away my clothing and pulled off my clothes, it would not bother me, and later if you put them back on me, I still would not have a problem. I do not have any kind of problem with anything. This body behaves according to the circumstances that surround it. And I am the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta) of it. This body is my neighbor, only a neighbor!

Questioner: So does that mean, that there is only an obstruction in spirituality as long as there is egoism (ahamkar) and ‘my-ness’ (mamata)?

Dadashri: Only egoism (ahamkar) is an obstacle. The ‘my-ness’ (mamata) is only there, as long as the ego (ahamkar) is there. Otherwise, if the ego is not there, there is no ‘my-ness’ (mamata) at all. Now ‘I-ness’ is not egoism (ahamkar). ‘I am’ is one’s existence (astitva) anyway. However, not having the awareness of ‘What am I?’ is the reason why the ego (ahamkar) remains in existence.

Where Is the Spiritual Path in This World?

Therefore, even if there is a mahatma or Self-realized being (sat purush), whose anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh), have diminished, you can make do with him. There would be some spirituality there, some, meaning that it would all be at a primary level. However, real spirituality does not exist in this world. People only chant about spirituality, and that is all. But there is no spirituality in the world: what does spirituality mean? What is spirituality?

The road of spirituality is one that if you take that road, you can see no other worldly road. That road is very different. So where does spirituality (adhyatma) begin? It is when you stop seeing the things on this side (the worldly life). Nevertheless it will stay on your mind. Those phases ( paryaya) and circumstances (avastha) that there are, will be stuck in your mind, but you will stop seeing that road. So it is called spirituality (adhyatma) when it stays on your mind, but you no longer see it with your eyes.

That is how it is. In the spiritual path, you must first distinguish between what is good and beneficial for you, and what is not beneficial. You must seize whatever is beneficial. And you must steer away from that which is not beneficial. That is the distinction you have to make first.

This Chandubhai is just a name, in order to remain in the interaction in the worldly life (vyavahar). You are not just Chandubhai, you are also this lady’s husband. You are this boy’s father, you are his maternal uncle (mama), you are his paternal uncle (kaka). How many of these entanglements possess (lafra) you? Spirituality (adhyatma) and worldly entanglements (lafra) are very far apart. Only when there are no entanglements, can spirituality surface. Now, to get rid of these entanglements is not an easy thing. Will they ever go, just by your giving them up? Even if you come here, those entanglements will even come and fetch you from here. Are those entanglements likely to ever leave you alone?

So, ‘I am Chandubhai’ is fine, as far as the worldly interactions (vyavahar) are concerned, but it is not so in reality. So do we not need to know what we really are? The real way is what will come with us, and worldly interaction will be left behind. Your name and everything else will be left behind, will it not? You are nameless (anami).

Now you are considered to have entered spirituality, when you have the enlightened vision of the Self (samyak darshan).

Otherwise, you have not entered spirituality (adhyatma) at all. Then no matter how many books one reads, the spirituality will not occur, even then. When one attains the enlightened vision (samyak darshan), and one attains the vision (darshan) of as it is; one enters spirituality. Therefore, when all those wrong beliefs are “fractured”, the right belief sets in.

Questioner: What do I have to do for the right belief? Do I have to keep saying, ‘I am not this body, I am not this body’, for that?

Dadashri: No; that will not get you anywhere! If you did that, you will go mad, and people will say, ‘If you are not the body, then what are you?’ You do not have to do that. So many people do that, and they have become crazy!

Questioner: So do I say, ‘I am an Atma’ then?

Dadashri: No, you cannot say that either. If a person, in his sleep, says to you, ‘Wait a while, I want to come to the cinema with you also.’ then would you not figure out, that after half an hour, an hour of sitting there waiting, that he has not got up. So would you not understand that he was talking in his sleep? In the same way, what good is it if one says, ‘I am Atma, I am Atma’, in one’s sleep?

Questioner: Should one not have the experience, ‘I am Atma’?

Dadashri: Yes, you can have the experience! It is when the Gnani Purush does it for you, that you will have the experience.

Questioner: But if I wanted to have the experience of the Atma by myself, how could I do it?

Dadashri: If I tell you how it is done, although it is fairly simple, you will not be able to do it. At the present time, people’s power of the mind (manobud) has broken down.

Nevertheless, I will show you one way: If you have had your pocket picked and lost five thousand rupees, then what does the justice of God say to you? It would say – ‘son, this is the consequence of your own karma, which is why you have encountered this pickpocket’. Did you understand? This is the fruit of your karma, and he is an instrumental being (nimit). But what do these people do? They bite (attack) the nimit instead. They should not bite him. They should give him blessings (ashirwad) – ‘it was you who freed me from my karma’. Can you manage to stay that way?

Even if you can understand just this much, then it would be more than enough! First you must believe that the pickpocket’s action has freed you from your karma. Or else if someone insults you, at that time, you should have the awareness that, ‘it is because of my unfolding karma and this man is an instrument (nimit)’. At least this much awareness should be present. Then if someone beats you, or cuts off your hands: this is the unfolding of my karma; he is just an instrumental (nimit) – if this much knowledge (gnan) prevails – then go! You will attain the Atma. But this knowledge does not prevail due to the current time cycle of dushamkaal (the time cycle wherein there is no unity of mind, speech and action). Moreover, a person’s mind cannot remain so strong! In this age it would not, would it? The mind has become verily fractured! That is why, once ‘we’ give you that awareness, it will never go away.

When Demerit Karma Is Destroyed, Your Awareness Increases

Now, when will the awareness (jagruti) come? The awareness will come, when your demerit karma (paap) are completely destroyed. What Lord Krishna said, was that the Gnani Purush completely destroys your demerit karma (paap), and once the demerit karma are destroyed, a constant awareness prevails. However, to remain constantly aware is the ultimate

state. So the main thing is that one needs the awareness (jagruti). Do you have less awareness?

Questioner: Yes, Dada. So we have to attain the continuous experience of the Atma.

Dadashri: Yes. Continuous, meaning constant; that you do not forget even at night – then know that you have attained something. If not, then nothing else will be of any use! For many avatars (births; lifetimes) one has attained this kind of mixed-up (bhelvaado) Atma. Bhel (savory snack mixture) is twelve rupees a kilo, and even the mixed-up Atma is twelve rupees a kilo, and so all the people yelling about the Atma, are all referring to the Atma which is also twelve rupees to the kilo. No one is saying, ‘Here, I am giving you the real Atma, come and take it!’

Or else, they give you a recitation (smaran), a name to recite (naam smaran), saying keep reciting this! Hey you, one can only do recitation (smaran),if one acquires an attachment (raag) for it. And where there is attachment, everything there, is the worldly life ( sansar), and where there is the worldly life, there is recitation (smaran). There should be no recitation whatsoever. Recitation should be the last resort. In a way, it does keep you in focused concentration (ekagrata); however it is a last resort. Besides, that which constantly remains in one’s awareness, is the Atma. Anything else is the mixed-up (bhelvaado) Atma.

Zero Has No Value Without the One

Questioner: Does Self-realization (Atmagnan) mean, to know your Self?

Dadashri: Yes, to know the Self, that is all, nothing else.

Questioner: Now, in order to know something, you have to delve deep into it. So in the same way, if we want to know the Atma, do we have to go deep within ourselves?

Dadashri: They all do that on their own anyway! That is how all those that composed Vedanta (Hindu scripture) arrived at it. Ultimately, after creating the four Vedas, they said, ‘This is not that. This is not that. This is not that.’ You cannot find the Atma, through the Vedas.

Questioner: If the Atma cannot be found, then what is it like?

Dadashri: It cannot be found, and it cannot be described. Even talking about it is a great liability. These four Vedas themselves have said no to that! It cannot be described though speech and it is not possible to express it.

Questioner: So then can one experience the Atma?

Dadashri: What do you have the experience of right now?

Questioner: Right now I am trying to attain a state of zero, which is devoid of thought (shunyavastha).

Dadashri: Shunya meaning?

Questioner: When you do not have desires and contrary thoughts (sankalp-vikalp), it is called shunya.

Dadashri: If there are two engines coming towards each other at full speed, one from this direction and one from the other direction, what would happen?

Questioner: There would be a huge accident.

Dadashri: They will collide in such a way, that even the engines will end up standing upright. When these people do meditation (dhyan) of the Atma, and whatever else they continue to do, it is just like a state that is devoid of thought (shunyavastha). Without even understanding what the state of zero (shunyavastha) means, they have embarked on attaining the state of zero (shunya). Zeroes without ones, are all useless.

Only if there is a one, a zero is useful. So how are you trying to attain the state of zero (shunyavastha) then?

Questioner: We sit in silence, and then try to stop any desires (sankalp) and contrary thoughts and agitation (vikalp) from arising.

Dadashri: And even then, the desires and agitation (sankalp-vikalp) keeps occurring, does it not? Yes, but who does that, when it is not your wish? Has someone puzzling not managed to enter in?

Questioner: That is the non-Self complex (prakruti).

Dadashri: Tell me, are you in the non-Self (prakruti), or are you in theSelf (Purush)?

Questioner: In the Self (Purush).

Dadashri: Who made you into the Purush?

Questioner: That is the knowledge we do not have.

Dadashri: If someone tells you, ‘Chandubhai has spoiled this’, will it affect you?

Questioner: If I had indeed ruined it, then I would have to own up to it.

Dadashri: But say you have not ruined anything, and someone says, ‘Chandubhai has spoiled this’, would it bother you?

Questioner: They can keep saying that.

Dadashri: Is that so? So, nothing in the name of Chandubhai affects you?

Questioner: No.

Dadashri: And if someone steals five thousand rupees from your pocket, it still would not affect you?

Questioner: It would, that is my livelihood there.

Dadashri: Now where did the zero (shunya) go then? Nevertheless, it is a good thing that you can stay calm in this way; it is not a bad thing. But all that, cannot be the path of shunya. For shunya, you have to attain the Atma; you have to know the Atma. After you know the Atma; then comes the state of shunya.

The Atma Is Way Beyond the Observer of Thoughts

Questioner: Then what is the best way to experience the Atma?

Dadashri: Do you have any other means (sadhan) to do that? You are trying to become the object to be attained (sadhya), but is there another way ( sadhan) according to you?

Questioner: We do atma observing (atma-nirikshan) for half an hour.

Dadashri: Are you doing the observing, after you have known the Atma, or are you doing it without knowing it first?

Questioner: After we have known the Atma, then what else is left?

Dadashri: Then whose observation of the Atma are you doing?

Questioner: Of whatever thoughts that arise.

Dadashri: Goodness, of thoughts! Thoughts arise from the mind, and the mind itself is non-living (jada). It is “completely physical”. So it is the mind’s thoughts that you are studying. That, which is doing the study, is egoism. And beyond egoism, lies the Atma.

The Tangled State of Experience

Questioner: I am relating my experience of the Atma; that the joy I feel inside, is like gushing water fountains.

Dadashri: Yes, some may feel a sensation like water fountains, or even see a kind of light or other such things, just upon hearing about the Atma.

Questioner: It is not about the gushing fountains, but you feel so much joy within.

Dadashri: Yes, but they are a kind of imagining (kalpana), that happens inside. But when you think about things on that side, you feel so much joy, so can you imagine how much joy you would feel if you reached that side?

One man who was simple and pure at heart, goes to a holy man. Then he comes to me and says, ‘I have had the experience.’ I asked, ‘An experience of what?’ So he says, ‘I have had the experience of the Atma.’ I said: no one has ever seen even the Atma’s shadow. No matter that one does not reach the Atma, however, just like the shadows that follow people around, which you can put your foot on; the Atma’s shadow, once reached, will bring you the enlightened vision (samkit).

Many in India claim that they have attained the experience. Now if a person had the experience, then it would definitely make him Bhagwan (God); he would be considered Lord Krishna! And all this experience they have come proclaiming; is filled with controversy, and nothing has come out of it.

I said to that man, ‘What are you calling experience (anubhuti)?’ So he says, ‘I do not know about that. But I do feel that when I feel this bliss ( anand), that it has to be the bliss of the Atma.’ Then I said, ‘It cannot be the Atma’s bliss (anand)! You have not attained the Atma yet. You have not even heard about the Atma. Hey, you have not seen its shadow. This is all the joy (anand) of the mind. When the circumstances (saiyogo) come together, the joy (anand) of the mind arises.’ And he replies, ‘Whenever I feel joy (anand), all I know is that it is the Atma’s bliss (anand) which is coming out.’ ‘Goodness, this

cannot be the bliss of the Atma. This is the joy of the mind! Once you have the bliss of the Atma, that bliss will never leave.’ Then he says, ‘Now it makes sense. But our gurus were all telling us that this was the bliss of the Atma. This is the only experience (anubhuti) I have.’ ‘No, with this kind of experience, you will go from having two legs into four legs!’ These are the kinds of wrong things they have taught these poor people! To enjoy the joy (anand) of the mind, in the ignorant state, is itself called the cause of the realm of lower life-forms (adhogati). Really, you should only take pleasure from the bliss of Gnan!

Therefore, if you enjoy mental pleasure out of ignorance (agnan), all that will be a cause (karan) for a life in the lower realms of existence (adhogati). People in the world, will always dwell in that mental happiness (maansik anand). They may have some suffering from the outside (upadhi), but again, they will find a way back into the mind’s happiness (maansik anand), so then it all starts up again!

Not the Believed but the Known Is Needed

All you have to know is, whether or not the disease of the worldly life (sansar) has abated. If you have doctors, and your disease does not subside, then it is your own fault.

Questioner: It has decreased.

Dadashri: What has decreased?

Questioner: If it decreases with the mind, then everything decreases. Through the mind, you have renounced everything; so everything is done.

Dadashri: Yes, but what have you acquired (grahan)? Renunciation (tyaag) means that you have become empty. So there is nothing left for you, is there? Then you are poor, and poverty will set in!

Questioner: You are asking about the worldly life (sansar), are you not? For the worldly life, only renunciation (tyaag) is needed! Whatever acquisition (grahan) we have to do, we do anyways.

Dadashri: Acquisition (grahan) itself is difficult. Where as renunciation (tyaag) is quite possible to do.

Questioner: Even renunciation (tyaag) is impossible. How can renunciation be possible? The outer renunciation is different, and the inner renunciation is different. Does renunciation not have to come from within?

Dadashri: You need the inner renunciation (tyaag) for it all to be possible. There are many people that do that. You need to look at what kind of acquisition (grahan) you have done. With renunciation, a vacuum is created, so what will you put there instead?

Questioner: What else could there be, other than, all this is truly the Absolute Self (sarva khalvidam Brahma)?

Dadashri: But what is Brahma?

Questioner: Brahma means the Atma.

Dadashri: How does one become the Atma (Brahma)? The Atma (Brahma) does not manifest! That is because, when does the Atma (Brahma) manifest? When anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh) and the ‘my-ness’ (mamata) disappear, that is when the Atma (Brahma) will manifest; otherwise, it will not manifest! Until then the consciousness of, ‘I am this body (dehadhyas)’, will not leave!

Questioner: Now you can see my shortcomings, how can I do that?

Dadashri: No, why would ‘we’ look at your shortcomings? You should be able to see your own shortcomings: ‘I still have greed (lobh), or I have anger ( krodh)’; that is something only you can see. You (the Self) do not have any anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh), do you? What if someone were to provoke you?

It is like this: if a man is sitting at Udhana railway station and he says, ‘I wanted to get to the last station on the Western railway, and I have reached there’, I would say to him, ‘son, do not sit here. You have to go much further ahead.’ ‘Get on the train, without further ado!’ I would tell him. So what is my job? It is that I would get them up, from wherever they might be sitting around, and settle them down. That is my business. Nothing can come out of believing everything in your own mind.

Questioner: Now I feel like I want to be free from the worldly life (nivrutti). So help me become steadfast on that path. I do not want anything else.

Dadashri: That is fine. ‘We’ will do that for you. You are right. It is only good if the disease of the worldly life (sansar) goes! The thing is that the disease of the worldly life is not easy to get rid of! This worldly life disease is not something that goes away! If the disease on this side decreases, then it augments on the other side.

Questioner: That goes on anyway in life.

Dadashri: Yes, it will go on. That is precisely what I am saying! Therefore, neither the name goes, nor the ‘my-ness’ (mamata) goes. If you put something somewhere, you will continue to remember it. What is the reason for remembering it? Have you placed a link (taar), a connection there? Have you made a connection (taar)? But no! Even without a link (taar), it remains in your consciousness: ‘I have put it down. I have left it in such and such a place’.

Questioner: But if one has put it somewhere, he is bound to remember it. What is there to remember if he does not put it there in the first place?

Dadashri: No, that is not what I am saying to you. These are all natural (sahajik) things I am talking about. ‘We’ cannot just refer to a single person. But you have to consider these things. Besides, if you keep sitting at the Udhana railway station, thinking that it is the last station in the western railway line, and you believe that it has come to an end, are you likely to get anywhere?

Questioner: But should you not have already decided where you want to go?

Dadashri: Everyone knows that they want freedom (mukti), and that they want liberation (moksha). They know it as words. People know that they want to become the Atma. But they have no idea where they are sitting! Should they not know that or not? Would they not know where they are sitting? That is why I have to be quite clear! If I did not say it clearly, they would not get rid of their baggage, would they?

Therefore, we have to get to the bottom of this. Furthermore, a person would not know by himself, which station he is at. That only happens when the Gnani Purush tells him, ‘son, there are still many stations to go, do not just sit around here needlessly, come and sit on any of these trains.’

Questioner: But Dada, what happens here, is that there are many who tell you to sit on this train. So one sits on one and then gets off again. This is the only problem that occurs.

Dadashri: That is the very business people have started. They get on and get off, get on and get off!

Without The Gnani, Endless Efforts Are Futile

In order to cure the disease of the worldly life (sansar), the entire world removes the leaves on the tree, or they cut the leaves. In their minds, they believe that the tree will now dry up. But after two months, it sprouts again, and they start fretting once more. So many people cut the leaves off the trees. So many people cut off large sprigs, and even then they get into a rut, as nothing seems to work. It just sprouts all over again. And so many people chop off large branches. Even they get stuck. And many people cut the trunk. Alas, the tree sprouts yet again. People are so weary from trying so hard to find a cure for this disease of the worldly life (sansar).

That is why the Lord has said, ‘Just once, in the entire world, there may be a rare Gnani. It does not happen everyday, nor moment to moment ( saike saike), but if there happens to be one at any time, then that is where your work can be done.’ Otherwise, all these shopkeepers here would say, that their shop is good. In our shop, we have the best. The ultimate kind of ware is only in our shop. And these poor people are so naive – naive and easily tempted – that they become trapped. Otherwise, if they did not have temptation within them, they would find out the truth. He that does not covet pride (maan), physical importance (taan) or possess any other kind of yearning, besides to know the Atma, and has no other desire, is the one who will find it!

If ever, the people of this world could manage to stay calm, and even through egoism (ahamkar) refrain from doing anger-pride-deceit-greed ( krodh-maan-maya-lobh), their knowledge would increase so much. That is because they would experience for a day, a state that is free of anger-pride-deceit-greed (kashays). All these humans have not even had an hour’s worth of that experience. Why do they not get that experience? It is because their chit (subtle component of knowledge and vision), is always dwelling in anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh). Is it possible to have that experience then? For you to be able to have that experience, you have to know the chetan (the Atma, the Self)!

When Can You See Chetan in the World?

Questioner: How do you define chetan (Soul; Atma)?

Dadashri: Bhagwan (God). And God Himself is chetan.

That would only mean one thing. There can never be two meanings ever. If one takes it another way, then that would be a different thing. Otherwise, in reality, there is only one meaning! Then it will not do, to believe copper to be gold. You would soon realize it, if you went to sell it in the market.

Questioner: How can one see chetan? What tools (sadhano) do we need, to allow us to see chetan?

Dadashri: You need that vision (drashti). You need that knowledge (Gnan).

Questioner: Where do we get that from?

Dadashri: That, you will get from someone who is out to give the gift of liberation (moksha), such as the Gnani Purush. It is from there that you attain the vision (drashti), and you will receive that knowledge (Gnan). And that only happens once in a while; once every thousands of years.

Questioner: So is the experience (anubhuti) that others have, right or wrong?

Dadashri: Experience? That experience is the same as believing copper as gold. And you get nowhere in that. Even if one were to take a hundred thousand rebirths, he would not get anywhere.

Questioner: Is there not anyone in this world who would have such an experience?

Dadashri: There can never be such a person. Those who have had the experience (anubhuti) have themselves become the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). Is there any Absolute Soul like that here?

Questioner: If by chance there is, we would not be able to recognize him, would we?

Dadashri: No, you would immediately recognize him.

Even if some day, he spoke just two words, you would know instantly. And he would even have calmed five of his disciples; his difference of opinion ( matbhed) would be gone.

The fact is that the Atma cannot be easily found. Man does not have the tools (sadhan) to know chetan!

Questioner: So should a person not make an effort to know it?

Dadashri: The one trying, has no power whatsoever in his hands! To you, it seems that ‘I am running everything. I am the one who goes to sleep. I am the one who gets up’. You feel, ‘I am the one who makes these efforts’, when all of it is controlled by something else(par-satta). And you believe that it is in your control (satta).

You can only find chetan through divine vision (divya chakshu), and divine vision can only be attained through thegrace of the Gnani Purush!

The fact is that right now you have a deluded vision (mithya drashti). A deluded vision (mithya darshan) means that it only shows you the things that are impermanent (vinashi), and not the things that are permanent (avinashi). So you would not be able to see the chetan at all! Do you understand that?

Questioner: Is the experience (anubhav) of the Atma, the enlightened view (samyak darshan) itself?

Dadashri: Kashays (anger, pride, deceit and greed) become suppressed (upsham). There are absolutely no kashays, and for forty-eight minutes, you see (experience) bliss (anand), and that is called the enlightened vision (samyak darshan). Anger-pride-deceit-greed (kashays) will be suppressed, and that too, for forty-eight minutes, and not for forty-nine minutes.

Questioner: What is the suppression (upsham) of anger-pride-deceit-greed (kashays) dependent on?

Dadashri: It depends upon the surrounding circumstances (saiyogo). It is not dependent on just one cause (karan). It could be any cause; just from seeing something one’s anger-pride-deceit-greed can become suppressed (upsham).

As the Belief of ‘I am this body’ Dispels, the Experience of the Atma Is Attained

Questioner: How would one know that he has attained the vision of the Self (Atma darshan)?

Dadashri: Are you able to recognize that this is dehadhyas (the belief of ‘I am this body’)? Do you not have the realization of ‘I am Chandubhai’? Have you not realized that, ‘I am this woman’s husband’? When you see your son, do you not immediately know that, ‘I am his father’, or do you forget?

Questioner: No.

Dadashri: All this comes about, because of the belief of ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas). So when you have the vision of the Self (Atma darshan), all of that (Gnan) will come forth. In ignorance (agnan) all this surfaces, and in Gnan, all that surfaces.

The experience (anubhuti) of the Atma, lies with the one whose belief of ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas) has gone. In Hindustan (India), even if you went around with a lamp, looking for someone whose belief of ‘I am this body’ has gone, you would not find him. If you kept searching around with a lamp, even if you looked in caves, you will still not find him. There would not be anyone like that in the caves anyway. All they do in caves is practice penances and austerities (tapa)! You will never find knowledge (Gnan) in caves!

Therefore, you should realize, that when a person’s belief of ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas) is gone, that there is experience (anubhuti); otherwise, there is no experience. Now if one’s belief of ‘I am this body’ is gone, then with it, what else of his has gone? And that too will only be to a certain degree, not fully.

From time to time, you may see someone who has decreased his egoism (ahamkar). But no one’s ‘my-ness’ (mamata) has gone.

And if there is a dinner plate in front of one, when you look, they all have the belief ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas), whether it is a maharaj (religious teacher or guru), or anyone else, they always protect (look out for) their own plate! How can you say that their belief of ‘I am this body’ is gone, when there is nothing like, ‘Let me give it away to someone else’? How are they supposed to rise above the identification with the body ( dehadhyas)?!

Wow! How Wonderful Is Atmagnan!

Questioner: When Atmagnan (Self-realization) occurs, what changes occur in the body that tells us that Self-realization (Atmagnan) has occurred?

Dadashri: After Self-realization has happened, even if someone insults you it would not reach inside, and in your mind, you would feel that he is an instrumental person (nimit) in the unfolding of your karma. How is it the poor man’s fault? Even the one insulting you appears as an instrumental being ( nimit) to you. Even the pickpocket appears to you as a nimit.

To speak the wrong way is ignorance (agnan), and to speak the right way is knowledge (gnan). The Atmagnani (Knower of the Atma) always says things the right way! Whereas the ignorant person (agnani) will always speak the wrong way. They catch the pickpocket and bite (attack) the one who is instrumental (nimit).

Questioner: So can you say that you have Atmagnan (Self-realization) if you are devoid of excessive pride (nirabhimaani), and you do not blame anyone?

Dadashri: Yes, when one becomes free of excessive pride (nirabhimaani) and sees no faults in anyone, and takes upon himself the suffering of other people, then you can say that he has become free. The unhappiness of the worldly life does not affect the Self-realized being (Atmagnani).

After attaining the Atma, even if your fever goes up by five degrees, the Atma remains separate. As your fever increases, the Atma stays separate, and you will continue to experience that separation for days.

A man who had been paralyzed was saying, ‘They all come to see me, but I myself am seeing the one who has been paralyzed, that this is what has happened to my legs, this is what has happened to my arms. Even I keep observing all that!’ Therefore he is himself the seer, and even those who came to visit were also seers! That is the effect of this Gnan. The effect of Gnan is like this in spite of the paralysis. And if the Gnan was not there, it would be, ‘I am paralyzed, I have a fever’ and that would be a sign of dying!

If you say, ‘It is happening to me’, then who would do the repairing? And if the I becomes freed from that, it is possible that it can repair on its own. It is one of Nature’s rules, that it would get repaired immediately.

So when can you say that the Atma has been attained? I will show you the signs, that after attaining the Atma, if your body is aching or your head is hurting, even then you will experience a state of well-being, unaffected by external sources (samadhi) within. If someone is verbally abusing you from the outside, even then you experience samadhi. When even in the midst of pain and sorrow (dukh), you experience a blissful state (samadhi) – that is the mark of Self-realization (Atmagnan). This would not be found in this present age (kaad); but nevertheless, it has happened!

After attaining the Atma, the experiences that you have at

the present time, will all disappear. All the experiences such as, ‘This is my son, and this is my uncle’, will disappear. Even all the experiences like, ‘I did this and I did that’, will disappear. All the experiences you are having right now; will all disappear!

You yourself will have the experience of the Absolute Soul (Parmatma) that, ‘I am Parmatma.’ Then there is no more worry or unhappiness (dukh). There will be nothing of what you are experiencing right now, over there. There is no worry. There is no affliction from external causes ( upadhi), no physical suffering (vyadhi), no mental suffering (aadhi); nothing whatsoever. Could you understand this? Many things will not be there. Despite all that is there right now, you will not have pain or suffering from outside (upadhi), there.

How Powerful the Knower Is!

Dadashri: Right now you are really experiencing, ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas)!

Questioner: Right now, the Atma is one with the body.

Dadashri: Yes, that itself is called dehadhyas. And when the dehadhyas is finished, there is freedom.

Questioner: You asked him if he was still experiencing the belief of ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas), and he said that the body (deha) had become one with the Atma. How could he know that his body and Atma had become one (ekatmata)?

Dadashri: It is because the real (muda) Atma is separate, and that is why he is able to know. The fundamental Atma is separate from that. Your believed Atma is a mechanical atma. Many have called it the atma that is interactive in the world (vyavahar atma). And now we have called it the relative self (pratishthit atma). But you believe that Atma as, ‘This is I’? This that eats, this that drinks, this that sleeps, all that is what you believe as, ‘I went to sleep.’ And it is that which has come to be called Atma; however, it is the atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma). The real Atma does not get involved with the things of the worldly life (sansar). The real Atma just goes on knowing all this, and it is because It knows, that you, sense from within, that ‘I am under the influence of dehadhyas (the belief of ‘I am this body’). I am experiencing the results of being involved (tanmayakar) in the body and mind complex. Who has known all this? It is the Knower that has known! The results of being involved (tanmayakar) have been suffered by the sufferer! So imagine how powerful the Knower must be! If you know that Knower, just once, then it is all finished! If only just once you come to Know, then your work is done.

The Invisible Realizes The Invisible

Questioner: If the Atma is invisible (aroopi), how can we get a direct experience (sakshatkar) of it?

Dadashri: The fact is, that the one doing the direct experiencing (sakshatkar) is himself invisible (aroopi). The one doing the direct experiencing is not visible (roopi). Therefore, through their intrinsic nature (swabhav), they come together.

Questioner: What happens when the direct experience of the Atma (sakshatkar) occurs?

Dadashri: The awareness (jagruti) greatly increases. This is what Krupadudev says:

‘Vartey nij swabhavnu, anubhav-laksha-pratita,

‘When the experience-awareness-conviction, that I am the Self (Atma) remains

Vrutti vahey nij bhaavma, parmarthey samkit’

The tendencies (vrutti) come home to the Self (the Atma), and this is the eternal Vision’

Therefore, when direct realization of the Atma (sakshatkar) occurs; all tendencies (vruttis) then come back and remain in the

nature (swabhav) of the Self! Even if the tendencies have gone outside, they immediately return. Whereas here, if you wanted to call the tendencies back, they will not come, and so many of them will be laying around outside their home!

Experience Is Different; Self-Realization Is Different

Questioner: Atma-anubhav and Atma-sakshatkar, what is the difference between the two words?

Dadashri: Sakshatkar (direct realization of the Self) is a different thing and anubhav (experience) comes, when you progress further.

Questioner: So what do people consider as the direct experience of the Atma (sakshatkar)?

Dadashri: This Knowledge (Gnan) that ‘we’ give you, is considered the direct experience of the Atma (sakshatkar).

Questioner: So is direct realization of the Atma (sakshatkar) lower than conviction (pratiti)?

Dadashri: When the direct realization of the Self (sakshatkar) happens to a person, the conviction (pratiti) sets in. Otherwise, his conviction ( pratiti) of, ‘I am Chandubhai’ will not go away!

Only the Experienced Gives One the Experience of the Atma

Questioner: At which stage of spiritual development (gunthanu:there are fourteen stages of spiritual development, a soul gradually passes through, before it attains final liberation) does one experience the Atma (Self)?

Dadashri: The experience (anubhav) of the Atma, can even happen at the fourth stage (gunthanu), it can happen at the fifth, or the sixth.

Questioner: Is it possible for a person to attain the experience of the Atma in this kaad (era of the time cycle)?

Dadashri: You can have the experience of the Atma in this age (kaad); moreover, there are almost ten to twelve thousand people that have experienced this! All these people sitting here; have all had the experience of the Atma. You must find someone who has had the experience (anubhavi Purush). Only then will you be able to experience the Atma; otherwise it will not happen. It is not an easy thing. Therefore, unless you meet an experienced person (anubhavi Purush); you will not get your work done.

If It Does Not Last, It Is Not the Experience

Questioner: How long will the experience of the Atma (Atma-anubhav) last?

Dadashri: It will last forever. Not just for a minute or two. There are things in the world that last one or two minutes anyways. All these things we eat and drink, only last as long as they are on the tongue, and then they are gone. Does that experience (anubhav) last? How long does the experience last, when you eat sweets? Or when you use a drop of perfume? It may last about ten or twelve hours, but the Atma, however, even if you have experienced it just once, will last forever. If not, it would not mean a thing! Then it is something meaningless!

Experience, Then Comes Conduct

Questioner: What is the difference between conduct as the Atma, and the experience of the Atma?

Dadashri: You can say that the Atma has entered your conduct, when it enters your vartan.

Questioner: And experience (anubhav)?

Dadashri: The experience has already happened first for the person.

Questioner: Does it come into one’s conduct (vartan) after experience (anubhav)?

Dadashri: Yes. That experience (anubhav) has already happened before, and then it is evinced in one’s conduct.

The ‘I’ Attains the Pure Form of the Self

Questioner: Who makes the decision to attain the pure Self (shuddha swaroop)? Is it the Atma that makes it?

Dadashri: The Atma is itself pure (shuddha). The one who has the itch, is the one who scratches it! Besides, who else would scratch it? He that has an itch, scratches it. And it is the ego (ahamkar) that does all that. It is the ‘I’ who does it. Who is the one doing all the thinking, about wanting to make this form pure (shuddha)? It is the ego (ahamkar) that does this.

We are done and tired of dealing with the business of this worldly life. So it wants to start doing business on this side now. And in so doing, it gradually ends up losing its own existence (astitva). And it ends up as themain form of the Self(muda swaroop).

The Ego Exists As Long As There Is Ignorance

Questioner: Unless you start thinking about the Atma, there will not be any movement towards the Atma, will there?

Dadashri: Yes, of course there will not be!

Questioner: So initially, will there not be the ego (ahamkar) involved in the thinking? Such as now, ‘I will do this, I will do that.’

Dadashri: Yes, the ego (ahamkar) will remain right until the end. It will stay as long as the ignorance (agnan) is there.

The Experience of the Atma; Completely Different from All Other Experiences

Questioner: On one hand we say, that there is nothing except for the Atma, and on the other hand, you employ the word Atmanubhav (experience of the Self, Atma), which creates uncertainty. If there is nothing other than the Atma, then could something called experience (anubhav), be inserted into thoughts, or inserted in the mind, or is it just an interference?

Dadashri: No, it is nothing like that.

Questioner: I am just asking, because we have to use the word Atmanubhav.

Dadashri: The only reason that word has to be used is because until the Atma is realized, one needs a ladder. It is from where you are standing, that ‘we’ (the Gnani) – in order to make you understand – need to show you the stepping (pave a way). And what is the meaning of Atmanubhav (experience of the Atma)? Right now, you have the belief that you are the body (dehadhyas), so what kind of experience (anubhav) are you having? The kind of experience you have is, ‘I am the body’, ‘I am even this name’, ‘I am also this mind’. Therefore through the experience of the Atma ( Atmanubhav), what ‘we’ are trying to say, is that this experience is very different to the experience of the body (dehadhyas). Therefore, you can say that after having had such an experience, that you have attained the Atma. Otherwise, how can you say that you have attained the Atma , if you have not even had the experience (anubhav)? Which is why, you have to include the word experience (anubhav), in order to help one understand. It is because you cannot directly say Atma. If you have new kinds of experiences, other than the experience that you have right now, of ‘I am this body’ (dehadhyas), you will feel in your mind, that this experience (anubhav) is different to that one, and you will feel certain that this is indeed the experience of the Self, (Atmanubhav). Only then will the conviction (pratiti) set in; otherwise even the conviction is not established.

Questioner: We experience thoughts and feelings, but should the experience of the Self (Atmanubhav) not be a state that surpasses all these other experiences?

Dadashri: This is a state that surpasses all other experiences. Just as this experience (anubhav) happens on this side, the other experience happens on the other side. Therefore, not even a fraction of this; is in that, and not even a fraction of that, is in this. The experience of the Atma is always different. It is completely separate, and without any change. Nevertheless, the experience (anubhav) must come first. The only reason this is said, is so that one finds a cause to establish the conviction (pratiti), and he is convinced that there is such a thing as the Atma, and that there is something different other than this. Otherwise, he will not even believe its existence (astitva). Hence, the experience has to have occurred!

That Is When the Facts Are Understood

You will be in agreement (ged) with whatever I am trying to tell you, meaning you will come to understand it fully (ged besi). It will reach you “to the point”. That is what I consider as being able to grasp. Do people not say, ‘I still do not get it’?

Therefore, the person will understand exactly what I am trying to explain, and that is called, ged bethi (fits; sits well; agrees). Since my viewpoint is different and his viewpoint is different, it takes longer to digest! So it takes time to grasp it! But it will only work, if you can grasp it.

Questioner: That is why you are using the words; the message should reach.

Dadashri: Yes. The message should reach you. That is why we say, ‘he is not getting the message’! When his level comes up a bit, and my level goes down a bit, that is when the message will fit him. Otherwise if I kept talking from above, even then it would be senseless; therefore, in order to make the message fit, you have to establish a level.

Nothing can be done unless you are able to understand. Everyone is in agreement about that! Once it fits, everything moves forward!

Atmagnan from The Gnani

Questioner: How does one attain Atmagnan (Self-realization)?

Dadashri: Atmagnan is attained from the one who Knows the Atma (Atmagnani). You have to meet him directly (pratyaksh) in order for you to attain Self-realization (Atmagnan).

Questioner: Yes, but how can we recognize a real Gnani?

Dadashri: If you provoked him, his ego (ahamkar) would not be stirred, or his ‘my-ness’ (mamata) would not arise, then he would be a true Gnani.

Or else, you ask the Gnani Purush, ‘Have you attained liberation (moksha) yet?’ You should ask him that. That is how you will know! When you go to buy vegetables, if you do not know whether they are two or three days old, or if they are fresh; would you not say to the grocer, ‘Tell me, if this is fresh or stale.’? In the same way, you should say to the Gnani Purush, ‘If you have attained liberation (moksha), then we will sit with you, or else we will leave and find another shop! Rather than waste our whole life sitting in one shop, it would be better to change the shop!’ Is there any harm in asking?

However, the easier way would be for you to attend the Gnani Purush’s satsang (gathering of Self-realized beings). Or else, you could insult him just once, and you would know whether or not this rupee is genuine or fake. Do we not insult the rupee when we tap it and knock it (to authenticate it)? We immediately know that it is not worth discarding, so would we not put it in the cupboard? And if it is worthless, then we can discard it.

Questioner: When we try testing, do we bind karma?

Dadashri: No. ‘We’ protect the one that does the testing. How else are you going to test him? Here, with ‘us’, if you want to test ‘us’, ‘we’ will protect you. ‘We’ will not let you fall, and you will pass your test.

Questioner: You will protect us, but what if we went to test someone else?

Dadashri: Do not do that anywhere else, and if you do, keep a hundred rupees ready, on you. Massage his feet, and say, ‘Sir, I am a bit mad’, by doing such things, you can turn it around. And if you buy him something for a hundred rupees, and massage his feet, he will be very happy. That is because it does not take long to make an egoistic person (ahamkari) happy. Even if you tickle (flatter) him, he will be happy.

Questioner: How is an ordinary person to know, without doing all this testing?

Dadashri: His speech (vani) is syadvaad (speech that does not hurt the ego of any living being); it does not go against, even in the slightest, any religion; his speech is not hurtful to anyone. And his speech, conduct and humility are appealing; they can even conquer our minds.

“This is the cash bank of Divine Solution” – there is never ‘on credit’ (udhaar); there is only cash (gives instant results). Whatever you want, you will receive as cash here.

If he gives you Knowledge of the Self (Atmagnan) immediately (in cash), then he is a manifest (pratyaksh) Gnani Purush . However, if it is protracted and on credit (udhaar); then he could not be a manifest (pratyaksh) Gnani. He would give it to you immediately in cash. Then you would not have to put him to the test! Would you put to the test a bank that gives you cash payment? Any bank that tells you that it can only give you money after six months, you have to examine it or ask around. Therefore where there is only going to be cash (immediately), why would you have to examine it?

Questioner: How can a living being recognize whether or not it is cash?

Dadashri: One can know it right away. If one cannot tell that it is cash (immediate), then there is no Atma within. If there is Atma in the body, one will definitely know. Otherwise, if one wants to be awkward, he will be. He has the freedom to do that! No one says no to him! When one understands what cash is, he would not throw it away!

The Conviction of Attaining the Atma

Questioner: How will I have the conviction (pratiti) that I have attained the Atma (vastu) or not?

Dadashri: Of course you will have the conviction (pratiti) of the Atma! You will indeed have the conviction of what you are! At the present time, the very illusion (bhranti) that exists within you will disappear! ‘I am Chandubhai’, is illusion (bhranti). ‘You’ become the very Atma that you truly are, so the illusion does not remain. And thereafter, nothing remains to be asked! ‘Chandubhai’ goes away. Chandubhai goes back to his home! This Chandubhai is full of doubts, and he himself goes away. ‘I am Chandubhai’ is a wrong belief.

Bound Through Belief…

Now, even after ten million avatars (lifetimes; births), the right belief would not be established. Where not a single wrong belief goes away, how can a single right belief be instilled?

Therefore not a single wrong belief budges. And the right belief does not set in! In the entire world, not a single person’s wrong belief budges. For countless avatars they have been reading Lord Mahavir’s scriptures (shastras), but not a single wrong belief shifts, and they get nowhere with it; they find some solace from reading the scriptures (shastras), but their belief does not change. Only the Gnani Purush, who gives moksha, can change the belief.

Questioner: If you want to attain liberation (moksha), you must go to a Gnani Purush!

Dadashri: And moreover, that Gnani Purush has to be a Self-realized person (Purush) who is a giver of liberation (mokshadata). Who gives the gift of liberation (moksha)? It is he who himself, constantly remains in a state of moksha, that can give you the gift of moksha. As you are already in wrong belief, then no matter what you do, even if you read the scriptures (shastras), or anything else, that wrong belief will strengthen, and the wrong belief will only continue to be nurtured!

And in this worldly life (sansar), they give one the gift of ignorance (agnan) from the time of his birth: ‘This baby boy. Son, this here is your daddy, this is your mummy’, and in so doing, the gift of ignorance comes to be given, and then the whole wrong belief becomes established within him. No one is able to fracture that wrong belief. Besides, if someone were to say ‘You are pure’, just like that, how would that work? It should fit into ( ged beswi) your understanding, and only then will the wrong belief be fractured. Otherwise the wrong belief cannot be fractured, and until then, no one will ever be able to accept, ‘I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)’. So far, your entire life has been ‘I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai.’ And that way, it has permeated each and every subatomic particle (parmanu). Now, to remove that, and to fracture that wrong belief, is something that can only be done by the Gnani Purush.

Ultimately, Liberation Only Attained Through Becoming Atmaroop

Questioner: It is also said that even if you think about the Atma for just a minute, you can become free from the worldly life (sansar).

Dadashri: If one becomes the form of the Self (Atmaroop), it is possible to become free from the worldly life (sansar). However, if one thinks about things related to the Atma, there can be no Atma there. Thinking is a way to go to the Atma.

Questioner: But when the state of becoming the form of the Self (Atmaroop) arises, can the illusion (bhrama) of the worldly life (sansar) really break?

Dadashri: The illusion will go away gradually. But since one has the old karmic account (hisaab), one will indeed be overcome with illusion without fail. It will only work if a new state of blocking the influx of karmic matter (samvar) occurs. So if one becomes the Atma for just a minute, it would last forever.

Questioner: Never mind a minute, it does not even last forty-eight seconds.

Dadashri: It will not do, if it does not last!

Questioner: After forty-eight seconds, it disappears.

Dadashri: But if it flees, then it cannot be the Atma. The Atma is something that does not go away. The Atma maintains the same form, whenever you see it; it is always the same form. Therefore, the Atma should appear as separate and all the rest of this should appear as separate.

Questioner: I understand that, and I also experience it, however the net of illusory attachment (mayavi jaad) is so strong, that at the time it arises, I get dragged away in that direction.

Dadashri: In reality, nothing can drag you away. It has not come into exactness, the fact that you have realized the Atma. If it has come into exactness, then nothing can touch you. That is because afterward, only the discharge karmas remain, so only the enduring of karmas (bhogavato) remains. New karmas are not being bound at all. If the Atma has indeed been realized, then the blocking off of inflowing karma ( samvar) remains, and where there is a blocking off of karma (samvar), the binding of karma (bandh) does not occur. Both the person who is ignorant of the Self (agnani) and the Self-realized person (Gnani) alike, definitely have influx of karmic matter (aashrav) and discharge of karmic matter (nirjara). However the only difference here is that, the person who is not Self-realized ( agnani), has binding of karma (bandh); whereas for the Self-realized person (Gnani), because of the power of Gnan, blockage against the influx of karmic matter (samvar) prevails.

Questioner: The influx of karmic matter (aashrav), the discharge of karmic matter (nirjara) and the blockage of the influx of karma (samvar). When one quickly jumps back and forth between these three states, is it the influence of karma?

Dadashri: The force of karma is very very strong. Despite this, karmas are neutral, so they are of a neuter gender (napunsak). This means that they are unable to do anything. As long as they do not have your support, they cannot do anything. Only when we give it support, it enables them to do something; otherwise they just come to an end. When they are no longer supported, they cannot do anything to us. However if we give them support by saying, ‘I did it’; from there they can shake you up!

Questioner: Is the support we give, because of past karmas?

Dadashri: That is called ignorance of the Self (agnanta).

Karmas are discharging (nirjara) anyway, but you are giving the support with, ‘I am doing it.’ The karmas that come into effect; will play out their part, but in this, we say, ‘I did it’.

Questioner: So we are to suffer our karmas without any expectation of reward (nishkaam bhaav), and since we do not suffer them, the tendencies ( vruttis) enter into them, is that not what happens?

Dadashri: Without Gnan, it is very difficult to get rid of the intent of doership (karta bhaav). If there is Gnan, there would not be the intent of doership (karta bhaav). When no more intent (bhaav) of doership remains, it means that there is a blockage of influx of karmic matter (samvar), and where there is a blockage of karmic matter (samvar), there is the state of being unaffected by all external turmoil (samadhi).

Questioner: I can reach the state of samvar, but I cannot stay still and steady (sthir).

Dadashri: No, if you have blockage of influx of karma (samvar), you would definitely have a state that is unaffected by external turmoil ( samadhi). Where there is samadhi, know that a man has samvar.

Questioner: But if for some reason there is binding of karmic matter (bandh), then what do we do?

Dadashri: Nothing needs to be done. You need to become the Atma.

Questioner: Do we not have to mentally figure out what the solution to this would be?

Dadashri: Once you have become the Atma, you do not have to think about anything. How far does the thinking go? You can carry on thinking for as long as you have doubts like, ‘Is this Atma, or is this Atma?’ You have to keep on thinking, as long as there is uncertainty about the Atma.

Questioner: Where the Atma is concerned, as long as there is the worldly life (sansar), is there not always going to be a place for speculation and argument?

Dadashri: That is why you have to attain the Atma from the Gnani Purush, and that Atma must remain in the Knowledge (Gnan), and follow his Agnas (special directives).

Questioner: I am trying to do that, but even then I am confounded with doubts and speculation.

Dadashri: You have to receive this Gnan from here, just once, then you have to stay in the Agna (the directive). Then you must come to thesatsang (gathering of enlightened people) and ask questions. Besides, this Gnan is a state that is free of ‘my-ness’ and ‘I-ness’ ( nirvikalp)! How can you have the ego ‘I am Chandubhai’ (vikalp) in this egoless (nirvikalp) Gnan? If you have ‘my-ness’ or ‘this is mine’ (sankalp), and the ego of ‘I am Chandubhai’ (vikalp), it means that you still have not attained the Atma. The one who has ‘my-ness’ – ‘I-ness’ (sankalp-vikalp), cannever become free from ‘my-ness’ and ‘I-ness’ (nirvikalp).

The Body Goes, but Not The Belief

Questioner: When one gives up his body, do these wrong beliefs go away on their own?

Dadashri: You mean when a person dies?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: No, those wrong beliefs arise again. Just because a person dies, it does not mean he goes to final liberation (moksha). The person dies, so he takes with him, all the stock he accumulated while he was here. The anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh), and everything that is in the stock, he takes with him; he leaves nothing behind. The whole family goes along with him, and wherever his new life starts again, is where it all begins anew.

Questioner: But do we not say that a person leaves everything behind when he dies? So how can everything remain in the stock?

Dadashri: That is all the physical things (sthool) that we have to leave behind. This subtle (sookshma), along with the entire family, will go along! This physical and gross (sthool) is everything that you see with your eyes; they can be physical (sthool) even if you cannot see them with your eyes, or under a microscope. He will leave all those things behind, and take with him, the part which is subtle (sookshma). He has to take along his karmas with him.

When the Belief Changes, the Karma Leave

Questioner: So how do the wrong beliefs become fractured?

Dadashri: It is not something you have to do, but something ‘we’ have to do for you. You would not be able to do it. If you were able to do it, you would not have been around for infinite avatars (lifetimes)! So that is a ‘doctor’s’ (Gnani Purush) work. You just have to submit the body ( deha) to the ‘doctor’ for just one hour, and say to him, ‘Go ahead and do whatever operation you need to on me, and bring me a result.’ And so the work is done.

Questioner: There is karma and there is a belief, what is the relationship between the two? Because when any one of the wrong beliefs is broken, you feel such lightness. At that time could you say that you have become free from karma?

Dadashri: It is from the wrong beliefs that one becomes free!

Questioner: So are that many karma destroyed or not destroyed?

Dadashri: No, the same karmas change! When the belief is turned, the karmas become quiet, and that goes into pleasure experiencing karma (shata vedaniya karma).

Questioner: Is it the karmas that have been bound to us?

Dadashri: When the belief changes, the karmas that are bound, all begin to break free. As the belief changes, all the karmas start breaking free. Otherwise, if the belief does not change, the karmas do not break free. All this is nothing but wrong beliefs. You yourself are the Absolute Soul ( Parmatma), but just look at what has happened!

Destruction of Belief With Belief

Questioner: Now when we replace the wrong belief with the right belief, would we not also benefit from the right belief? But is that not a belief as well? And as long as a belief exists, will it not yield karma, as its fruit?

Dadashri: But there is no belief in the right whatsoever. It is to destroy the wrong belief; that the right belief exists. Otherwise you would not be able to destroy the wrong belief! And when one destroys the wrong belief with the right belief, then on his own, with the right belief, he himself destroys his own self (ignorant part). Thereafter, he no longer has anything else to destroy! It is with this course of action that all this has been arranged. It is this way, or else there would be no end to its growth. This is an enlightened vision (samyak darshan), and it is the right belief, so it dissolves on its own. The right belief is dependent on the Self (swa-satta) and wrong belief is dependent on other external things (par-satta).

The Principle of Self-Realization Through an Independent Vision

The Gnani Purush will make you aware that you have touched the world. Otherwise there is not a single thing that can touch you. Someone may ask, ‘Do I not need anything?’ And we would say to him, ‘No, you do not need anything. You do not need to have any kind of dependency (avalumban) on this world at all.’ Therefore, when he comes to that awareness, he will say, ‘I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma), I am the pure Soul.’ From then on, there is no more worrying, or frustration left. Worry and frustration only takes place in the non-Self part, but one takes it all upon himself that ‘This is what is happening to me.’ Goodness, this is not Yours; it is happening in the home of someone else. How can anything happen to You? It is happening at neighbor’s house, so what is it got to do with You? Besides, nothing can happen to the Atma (the Self)! But it is the illusion (bhranti) of infinite ages that makes him forget all these facts.

Atma and Non-Atma Separated Through The Gnani’s Vidhi

Questioner: You say that the ‘Atma is completely separate from me’, then why has it not become clear to me yet?

Dadashri: It can only become separate, after it has been separated, or else it remains as one (tanmayakar). ‘We’ separate it for you; when ‘we’ perform the Gnanvidhi and it becomes separated. Otherwise, it cannot happen. That is why you just have to say that it really is separate indeed! But as long as the illusion (bhranti) is there, it remains bound. On the day ‘we’ give you Gnan here, we separate the Self (Atma) and the non-Self ( anatma) and from that point onwards the direct experience of Bhagwan (the Self), will never leave you. It is then that you will start seeing your own faults (dosh). Otherwise, until then you will not be able to see faults. As you begin to see the faults, they will disperse.

Attainment of Gnan Results Through Deep Intent

Questioner: What lies in my fate? When will I receive the Gnan that you talk about? Give me a time period.

Dadashri: It will come. You have made the inner intent (bhavna), so it will come! How will it come if you have not made the bhavna?

Questioner: I feel that ‘Delhi’ is very far away.

Dadashri: Gosh, nothing in the world is far away. If the Atma itself is with you, then why would Delhi be so far? The Atma is near to you. When the unattainable Self (vastu) is right there with you, what other thing can you say is far?

…Then Obstacles to Gnan Are Destroyed

Questioner: So many people come to you here, and a few amongst them do not feel like they want to take the Gnan, why would that be?

Dadashri: That is their obstacle (antaray) karma. After those obstacles (antaray) come to an end, they will then feel like taking the Gnan. So what do we have to do to bring an end to the obstacle (antaray)? Either you yourself should firmly decide that, ‘Today I definitely want to break these obstacles’, then ‘Come what may, I still want to destroy those obstacles’. Or else, you should say to the Gnani, ‘Sir, please destroy my obstacles.’ So, even the Gnani Purush can destroy them. Otherwise, even if one’s food is in front of him, it may not even let him eat. The food is ready and he is preparing to eat, then someone comes calling, ‘Come quick, you have to come now.’ You may even have to leave your ready plate of food behind – that is called an obstacle karma (antaray karma).

That Is When the Atma Is Experienced in Conduct

Questioner: How does one attain the experience of the Atma from you?

Dadashri: Right now, are you experiencing anything at all? When you feel cold, do you not experience it? When you feel hot, do you not experience it? When someone insults you, and you taste bitterness, do you not have that experience? So what kind of experience do you want?

Questioner: The experience of the Atma.

Dadashri: What does the experience of the Atma mean? It is a state of eternal bliss (parmanand). The bliss (anand) never leaves – that is called the experience of the Atma.

Questioner: How can we get it?

Dadashri: What do you want with it? Why would you need eternal bliss (anand)? Besides, do you not need a wife or money?

Questioner: No, I do not need that.

Dadashri: Then, do you need this body or not?

Questioner: Except for Bhagwan (God) I do not need anything else.

Dadashri: That is true! Yours is the work of a brave man. But for that, you need to know who God is – that is what you must know. What is the world? Who created it? What is God? Who are you? How did this entire world come into existence? How can you realize God now? You need to know all that.

Questioner: In what way can we do that?

Dadashri: The only way, is right here. No where else in the world is there a solution such as this. The entire path lies right here!

Questioner: But is it not worthless without the experience?

Dadashri: Yes, you must have the experience.

Questioner: When does that happen?

Dadashri: When you have no desire for anything else,

except for God, and the Atma, you will then experience that. That would also mean that you would not want women, money and everything else. And you will get such an experience right here. When? In this very lifetime; even so, not in two or three months, but it will happen within one hour.

Questioner: And how will it be possible to remain constantly absorbed (tanmayakar) in, and one with the Atma afterward?

Dadashri: When a person takes Gnan here, and then follows ‘our’ Agnas (Five directives), he can remain in the Atma constantly. But all these worldly entanglements will not allow him to remain constantly in the Atma. Even you have worldly entanglements, do you not? Children will say, ‘Father, give me my school fees.’ Alas, you have the money at home. But would you not have to go out to cash the hundred rupee note? If one is not married, he would have work or a business. Therefore these are all worldly entanglements, and as long as these are there, it is not possible to remain constantly in the Atma. But when your intent towards the worldly entanglements decreases, and as you begin to understand that bliss lies in the Atma, then these worldly entanglements will begin to decrease. Thereafter you will be able to remain as the Atma.

Understanding the Word ‘Shuddhatma’

Questioner: They say that the Atma is solid awareness of the eternal bliss (sat chit anand). Is it an imaginary idea (kalpana) or is it true?

Dadashri: Why? It is true. It is true that the Atma is solid awareness of the eternal bliss (sat chit anand). There is no imagination (kalpana) in that.

Questioner: What about the people who say that it is an imagination (kalpana)?

Dadashri: The ones who do the imaginings (kalpana), have no idea about what awareness of the eternal bliss (sat chit anand) is. If they realize that, they would always have eternal bliss. And when you attain eternal bliss, you attain the state of awareness of the eternal bliss (sat chit anand).

Questioner: If the Atma is solid awareness of the eternal bliss (sat chit anand), then how is it the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)?

Dadashri: The Atma itself is the state of awareness of the eternal bliss (sat chit anand swaroop). But why have these people not been given the word s at chit anand? It is because sat chit anand is a term that expresses the attributes and properties (gunavaachak) which these people will not understand. These people need the word Shuddhatma, which is why they have been given the word Shuddhatma (the pure Soul). Why do we need the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)? These people say, ‘I am a sinner’. So we would say, ‘If you know science (vignan), then sin (paap) cannot touch you. You really are pure Soul (Shuddhatma). But your belief is wrong.’ It is like the man who sleeps alone in a dark room, who during the daytime, has heard stories about ghosts, so that when he hears the noise of a cup rattle in the night, right there and then, his wrong belief that there’s a ghost in the house, sneaks in. Now, until that wrong belief is gone, he will stay in that same state; trembling with fear.

Shuddhatma Cannot Be Attained Through Saying ‘Sohum’

Questioner: What is the difference between saying, ‘I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)’, and saying ‘I am That’ (sohum)?

Dadashri: There is no use in saying ‘I am That’ (sohum). You are really the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)! What does sohum mean? It means: I am That. So what kind of salvation do you get from it? Therefore, your salvation lies in ‘I am the pure Soul’ (Shuddhatma), and that means: The pure Soul is who I am. Whereas ‘I am That’ (‘sohum’) says, ‘That is who I am’. There is no meaning in that!Sohum is a tool (sadhan) to attain the pure Soul (Shuddhatma). Those who attained the goal (sadhya), relinquish the tool ( sadhan).

After Becoming Pure, One Can Say ‘Pure Soul’

Questioner: Can you become the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) by saying ‘I am the pure Soul’?

Dadashri: You cannot become it like that. There are many people who do say, ‘I am a Shuddhatma’, but they do not get anywhere.

Questioner: If we have not attained Gnan from you but we have read about it in a book, or have been told to say ‘I am Shuddhatma’ by someone; do we get any benefit from that?

Dadashri: You will not get anything at all out of that! Even if you said Shuddhatma for thousands of lifetimes you still would not get anywhere.

Just like if you have a friend, who falls asleep while talking to you, but you think he is still awake, so you ask him to loan you some rupees. But before you ask him again, he says, ‘I will give you five thousand rupees.’ Then would you believe him? Would you not have to check and see whether he was sleeping or awake when he said that? If he is saying it in his sleep, he would not give you anything, even if you sat around all night. And if he is saying it while he is awake, then he would give it to you. In the same way, they are saying ‘I am Shuddhatma’ in their sleep. So they gain nothing from it.

The awareness of ‘I am Shuddhatma’ has to be given by the Gnani Purush, so when you are awake; then when you say it, it is beneficial. In the same way, I first awaken you and then make You say, ‘I am the pure Soul’ (Shuddhatma), I do not make you say it just like that! And in an hour, I give you the entire liberation (moksha). Moksha means that you will never again have any worries – that is the kind of moksha I give!

Can You Light with a Real Lamp or a Picture of a Lamp?

Questioner: Without taking Gnan, if a person says, ‘I am Shuddhatma (the pure Soul)’ just from reading it in books, does he derive any benefit from it?

Dadashri: You do not receive any benefit whatsoever! Without taking Gnan, saying, ‘I am Shuddhatma (the pure Soul)’ is futile. Besides, you would never remember Shuddhatma.

Furthermore, in books it is written as, ‘The Atma is pure (shuddha) and you are the pure Soul’ (Shuddhatma). You cannot be all this. Besides, in the worldly life (sansar), you would not be able to do anything as Shuddhatma. That dravya (element) does its work, and this dravya (element) does its work.’ – that is all they are trying to say. But how can people maintain the awareness of the pure Soul ( Shuddhatma)? This is egoism (ahamkar), and anger-pride-deceit-greed (krodh-maan-maya-lobh) are all in it together, so how can one maintain the awareness of Shuddhatma? He can keep saying ‘I am Shuddhatma’ by heart all day long, but the awareness (laksha) of the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) would not sink in! Only when the Gnani Purush destroys one’s demerit karma (paap), will the awareness of Shuddhatma be established. And that awareness will stay throughout the day; otherwise, it would not stay in one’s awareness! Therefore, first the sins (paap) must be cleansed.

Questioner: If your Five Agnas were written down, and a hundred or two hundred years from now if someone reads them and thinks about them, can he attain the state of Shuddhatma (the pure Soul) or not?

Dadashri: No, no! There will be some Gnanis around, for two to five hundred years. Something or other is bound to arise. Sooner or later, the light will be kindled in everyone, so if there is someone like that around, it would benefit everyone. Otherwise, you cannot become Shuddhatma just like that.

Shuddhatma Cannot Be Attained Through Chanting

One person tells me, ‘I keep remembering, I am Shuddhatma.’ So I said to him, ‘Goodness, you keep remembering it and yet you still have not attained Shuddhatma?’ And then he says, “No. And the next day, I had to think to myself, what was that word? For four hours, I kept thinking, ‘What was that word? What was that word?’ But I could never recall that word.”

So a person will forget even the word. Therefore, that reciting or chanting (samaran) could never sink into your awareness. Instead of doing that kind of recitation (samaran), you are better off chanting your wife’s name; at least she will make you savory fritters (bhajiya) and sweet fritters (jalebi). By giving these false chanting of mantras (samaran) over and over, one has neither attained the celestial realm ( deva gati), nor prosperity over here. So they were given the runaround from both sides. It would have been all worth it if they had found prosperity over here.

They tell you, ‘We are giving you this mantra to chant, just keep reciting it (samaran)’. You fool, what am I supposed to do if I forget that chant (samaran)? Besides, when does a chant remain? It remains automatically, for things you have attachment (raag) for. Or else, if there is someone towards whom you have considerable abhorrence (dwesh); it will constantly remain on your mind. So anything that you have a lot of attachment (raag) for, will remain on your mind; samaran for it will prevail.

And the fruit of chanting of a mantra (samaran) is the worldly life (sansar); you have to wander-wander-wander. Can you understand what I am telling you? Do you understand the

meaning of chanting a name (samaran)? Therefore, the Atma is continuously present and one has to start saying it naturally on one’s own. It is not something we make him say and he repeats it. It should come on its own.

Questioner: But can the inspiration to say, ‘I am Shuddhatma’ come from within or not?

Dadashri: Of course it can!

Questioner: Then is he saying it or is he being made to say it?

Dadashri: Here, it is not a question of saying it or making one say it. No one is saying it, and neither is anyone making you say it. And the one who makes you say it, the one making you say it becomes liable.

So whatever you are looking for, is ensconced in darkness. What you are looking for ahead is all in darkness. And there is not anyone who will make you say it. It is this scientific circumstantial evidence that is speaking, and what you are talking about, is all pitch darkness. Those who have ventured on that side, are all wandering around in vain.

Factionalism Is the Unnatural State

Questioner: So does the Knowledge (Gnan) of the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) that we attain from you, not become a cult or sect?

Dadashri: No, this cannot have a sect! Where there is unnaturalness (vibhavikta); there is a sect. Where there is naturalness (swabhavikta); there naturalness arises, and there could not be a sect there! Because, in that case, one would be doing the worship (darshan) of the Shuddhatma in trees and leaves; cows and buffaloes, and all the living entities (jivas); so how can there be any separation or sect? He sees God all around, everywhere!

When the Wrong Belief Goes, There Is Oneness With God

Questioner: If the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) itself is Bhagwan (God); he is within us, so he cannot be somewhere far away, can he?

Dadashri: Yes, that is it, the one inside you, is himself Bhagwan, there is no other Bhagwan in this world.

Questioner: So you would not have a separation (bhed) with that Bhagwan, would you?

Dadashri: But at this point in time, you are separate. Bhagwan (God) is able to join you, only if you become one (abheda). But you want to be Chandubhai and you want to be some woman’s husband, you want to be the boy’s father, you want to be someone’s uncle…, so of course God could never join you! When you become God’s, he will become one with you (abheda). When you become Shuddhatma, you become God’s; therefore you become one. You are the one who has created the division (bhed); God has not created the division (bhed). When you say, ‘I am this woman’s husband’, God says, ‘Go, be a husband then.’ And this is how you have made a split with God. Now if you become one with God, then everything becomes united ( abheda)! And to bring about that oneness; there is all this science (vignan). The entire world is searching for Bhagwan (God); searching for that oneness.

You are right in asking why this separation came about. Is it not true? The division (bhed) is that Bhagwan (God) is really inside, but why does one not feel that oneness? One has never really bothered with God! One has only been concerned about, ‘This is my wife and these are my children, and this is my brother, this is my uncle’. He does not care about Bhagwan. In fact, no one really cares about Bhagwan. Even devotees do not care about Bhagwan. Devotees are continually lost in their cymbals and all that; completely absorbed in its revelry and rapture. No one cares about Bhagwan. That Bhagwan tells me everyday, ‘No one cares about me.’ Some are absorbed with their tea, some are obsessed with their drugs, someone is always obsessed with something, some are intoxicated with alcohol, some are obsessed with their wives, then there are those who are obsessed with money – Alas the entire world is wallowing in some form of absorption!

Say Shuddhatma – Pure Soul, for Purity to Prevail

Questioner: Why do you say pure Soul (Shuddhatma)? Why not just say Atma, Soul? Is the Atma, not chetan (Self) as well?

Dadashri: Shuddhatma means pure Soul (shuddha chetan). The reason for calling it pure (shuddha) is because, before one used to think, ‘I am a sinner, I am worthless, I am like this, I am like that.’ All those preconceived ideas that one had about himself, have all been erased. If one just said soul ( Atma), instead of pure Soul (Shuddhatma), he would lose the awareness of his own purity (shuddhata); his awareness of being untainted and pristine (nirlepta) would disappear.

Questioner: So what is the true meaning (marma) of Shuddhatma?

Dadashri: The true meaning of pure Soul (Shuddhatma) is that it is detached (asanga); it cannot be tainted (nirlep; unsmaerable); whereas the atma (the relative self) is not like that. The atma has been tainted, and the Shuddhatma is the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). Do people of all religions not say, ‘My Soul is sinful’? And even then, the Shuddhatma does not have any problem.

The pure Soul (Shuddhatma)itself indicates, ‘Now we have become unsmearable (nirlep); all our sins are gone.’ So it is because of shuddha upayog (pure applied awareness of the Self) that we have called it Shuddhatma (the pure Soul).Otherwise, those with atma do not havepure applied awareness of the Self (shuddha upayog).Where the Atma is concerned, everyone is an Atma! But those who have pure applied awareness ( shuddha upayogi); they are called pure Soul (Shuddhatma).

There are four kinds of Atma: one with impure awareness (ashuddha upayogi), one with inauspicious awareness (ashubha upayogi), one with auspicious awareness (shubha upayogi) and one with pure applied awareness (shuddha upayogi). They are all different atmas. Therefore, when we only say Atma, which of those are we referring to? So you would say, the pure Soul (Shuddhatma). And so the one with the pure applied awareness (shuddha upayogi), is the pure Soul. Now again, the awareness (upayog) has to be kept pure (shuddha). In order to keep the awareness pure, you have the pure Soul (Shuddhatma); otherwise, the awareness cannot remain pure.

Someone asked me, ‘Dada, why are you the only one who calls it pure Soul (Shuddhatma), when everywhere else, is calling it Atma?’ I replied, ‘The Atma they are talking about, could never be the Atma, and the reason ‘we’ are calling it the pure Soul is different.’ What are we saying? Is that, when we make you realize just once, that you are Shuddhatma, and that this Chandubhai is separate, you will have understood it even with your intellect (buddhi). Now if Chandubhai ends up doing the worse thing possible, something that makes others condemn him, you should not lose the awareness of, ‘I am Shuddhatma’, and never should you believe that, ‘I am impure (ashuddha)’. It is to say just this; that I have to call it Shuddhatma. You have never become impure, and that is why ‘we’ have to say this. The seat of the pure Soul (Shuddhatma pad) that we have given you – that Shuddhatma pad – the pure Soul state (shuddha pad), will never again change. That is why we have employed the pure (s huddha). As far as impurity is concerned, as long as you have this body, the impurity (ashuddhi) will continue to occur. Some will experience more impurity and some will experience less impurity. That will go on happening. And this may lead one to think, ‘Dada made me pure (shuddha), but there is still all this impurity’. And once that sets in, it gets spoiled again.

The Intent of Doership Leads to Bondage of Karma

Questioner: If a person has received the Knowledge of the pure Soul (Shuddhatma), and someone slaps him, if he slaps the person back, are we to assume the knowledge has had no effect on him? Or that his state of being Shuddhatma is still weak?

Dadashri: You cannot say that the Knowledge of Shuddhatma is weak.

Questioner: So why did he slap him back?

Dadashri: When he slaps the other person back, at that moment, he is separate. In his mind, there is remorse that, ‘This should not happen, why is this happening?’ This Gnan is such, that when you make a mistake, you would instantly know it. And if you realize that you have made a mistake, you would immediately feel regret without a doubt.

And the incident that has occurred has nothing to do with Gnan (Knowledge). These are all his discharge intents (bhaav).

Questioner: If one has become a pure Soul (Shuddhatma), if he has taken this Gnan, and has become perfect, how would we be able to tell from his behavior?

Dadashri: He would not have any egoism; his doership will have disappeared.

Questioner: Say for instance according to him it is, ‘I am not doing this’. So when I slap him, I say, ‘I am not slapping him; it is the body that hit him, the Atma has not hit him’, then?

Dadashri: You cannot say that! You cannot say, ‘The body hit him’. That is a liability. If you say, ‘It was the body that hit him: the Atma did not hit him’, and try and justify yourself in that way, then we can say, ‘Hold on a second, let me poke your body with a needle.’ Therefore you cannot say ‘it was the body that did the slapping.’

It is like this – hitting someone is a kind of discharge intent (bhaav). After this Gnan, one himself stops charging (of karma), so all that remains after that is just discharge (of karma). One is no longer responsible for that.

“Karta meetey , toh chhootey karma”

“One becomes free from the bondage of karma when the doer is gone.”

For him, the doership is gone.

Questioner: The intent (bhaav) of ‘I am doing…’ should go away.

Dadashri: That is all. If at least that much intent (bhaav) goes away, then your work is accomplished.

Pure: Impure – From Which Perspective?

If a man says that he is liberated, without having attained Atmagnan (Self-realization), it would not be true; that is what people thinkAtmagnan is. They recite two or four sentences like, ‘I have infinite Knowledge, I have infinite Vision’; they take two to five such qualities ( gunas) and go around saying them out loud. There is no Atmagnan (knowledge of the Self) in that. The ‘I am Shuddhatma’ that is found written in books is trying to say, ‘You are not all this, you are That’. It seeks to change one’s vision (drashti); it is telling you to adopt that intent (bhaav). But you cannot say that you have attained the Atma in that way.

One can be said to have attained the Self, when he attains Atmagnan (Knowledge of the Self), which is the karan Keval Gnan (causal absolute Knowledge). Self-realization (Atmagnan) does not just happen to anyone! At this present time, no one has Atmagnan. If one did have Atmagnan, his speech would not be like it is, his conduct would not be like this, he would have no overt insistence (aagraha) whatsoever!

TheSelf-realized being (Atmagnani) has no overt insistence (aagraha); he is without insistence (niragrahi). Moreover, where there is Self-realization (Atmagnan), there is no egoism (ahamkar); there is no insistence (aagraha). Besides, where there is egoism (ahamkar), and where there is insistence (aagraha) there; they do not know anything. Granted, they do know scriptural knowledge (shastra gnan). If your egoism (ahamkar) does not go away, by whichever scripture it may be, then the knowledge in the scripture ( shastra) has not been useful to you.

Questioner: So many who have had the vision of the Atma, say that it is shuddha-buddha.

Dadashri: Yes, they do say pure and enlightened (shuddha-buddha)!Now if the Atma is pure (shuddha) and enlightened (buddha), then why do you go to temples? And why do you read these scriptures? Is this not worth understanding? That is why over there, the talks are relative and dependent. From certain level of expectation, it is pure. Yes, as long as you are Chandubhai, and on top of that, you are ignorant of the Self (agnani), you cannot call the Atma pure! Yes. If your ignorance of the Self (agnan) goes away, the Atma is certainly pure ( shuddha)! Inside, it has always been pure; it has never become impure (ashuddha)! But if you keep saying, ‘It is pure (shuddha), it is enlightened (buddha)’ for no reason, you will get nowhere. You should be able to experience that purity. And if you want to say it, you can say, ‘In relation to the body, I am impure (ashuddha), but in relation to the Self (Atma), I am pure (shuddha)’. That is because the Self is itself independent (nirpeksha)! But this should be a dependent (sapeksha) thing. You cannot just make an independent statement that ‘the Atma is indeed pure’; you cannot speak this way. If you just say, ‘The Atma is pure’, then there is no need to look for it!

‘What Is’ – That You Must Know (!) But…

Gurus say, ‘You are this’, and one continues to chant it repeatedly. However, they have not told you ‘What you are not’: they need to tell you both things. All they tell you is, ‘what is’. They have not told you ‘what is not’. That is why one lives in ‘what is not’, but the words that come out are of, ‘what is’.

I have come across so many people here. They tell me, ‘My guru has given this to me.’ And I say to them, ‘It is correct, it is not wrong. Your guru has given it to you. But what have you achieved from it until now, tell me that. If someone provokes you, does it not bother you?’ So the person says, ‘That does not go away. But it will happen after some time.’ I said, ‘No, it would not take long at all, if you had your own Self form (swaroop), in your hands.’ Then he asks, ‘What is stopping it?’ That is when I told him, ‘You have not been told, what you are not; they have told you what you are’. But they have not told you, what you are not. If they had told you this, it would have been helpful. Which guru would know what you are not? Tell me!

Right now, are you not present while eating and drinking? The other person took the adjustment of ‘I am indeed pure and enlightened’. But what are you not? Why do you not find that out, or is it all the same to you? ‘I am pure-enlightened (shuddha-buddha)’, and is the cardamom pure-enlightened ( shuddha-buddha)as well? Now, what is not? So until this is analyzed, one will not get anywhere; he is wandering around. For endless lifetimes, this same wandering has carried on.

Narsinh Mehta (renowned 15th Century Gujarati poet) who was a great thinker, did much critical analysis! Was he just any old Nagar (a Brahmin caste)? ‘Nagar child can never be weak’ (Nagar baccho kabhi na hoy kaccho) – He can never be feeble. He has done an incredible amount of analyzing. And then he said:

“Jaha lagi Atma tattva chinhyo nahi;

tyahaa lagi sadhana sarva joothi .

“Until you have attained the element that is Atma, all your efforts will have been in vain.”

So, he is telling us that his own efforts (sadhana) of attaining the Atma were wrong! So what does it mean to know the element that is theAtma (the Self)? It is to know ‘What it is’ and it is to know ‘What it is not’ – that is called the element of the Atma (Atma tattva)! But if you only know, ‘What is not’, then just that much would be enough for me. Because if you know ‘What is not’, then ‘What is’, is understood. And that which is understood, is true anyway, so if you do not know that, it is perfectly fine. However, you have to know this, ‘What is not’. However, people have understood that, ‘What is’, and so they keep singing about it. Even while they are eating laddus (sweets)…can such thing happen? This is what has happened all along, which is why infinite lifetimes keep occurring.

‘What Is Not’- How Do We Know This?

Questioner: Now regarding that negative side, can you explain how we are supposed to know the negative side?

Dadashri: I will explain all that to you on that day. At that time you will learn about all that negative. You will enjoy these talks better after that. That is when what I am telling you will reach you.

That is why I tell these people to go and find out ‘What is not’. That is when they say, “I want to know ‘what is not’.” So I tell them to just get rid of the ‘my’. ‘My hands’: that you are not. You are not, ‘my head’; you are not in ‘my eyes’, keep taking all that away. My mind, my egoism, my speech; take all that away. Then you could say, ‘I will attain my salvation; it would immediately come and stand before me.’ So do it, but how can the poor man take all this out? First his paap (demerit karma; sins) must be completely destroyed.

What is this whole world like? If you do it this way, you get stuck, and if you do it this way, you get stuck. That is why everything is relative and dependent (sapeksha); when one comes, he still has another expectation waiting. Therefore, after ‘we’ destroy your demerit karma (paap ), you will understand thoroughly, ‘What is’ and ‘What is not’. Besides, I have told one foreign scientist about, ‘What is not’.

When we went to Lonawala, they had come there. And they said, ‘Give us something.’ So I told them, “Separate I and My with the Gnani’s separator.” I told him, that I was not going to give him my separator, but I was going to show him the way to do the separation internally. And that way, you can subtract the ‘mine’, subtract this, and subtract that. But how can he attain that now? Without destroying his demerit karma (paap), how was he going to attain that? It is those demerit karmas that put layers of coverings (avaran) over this Knowledge (Gnan). That is why the demerit karmas have to be destroyed first. It is because of those demerit karmas that you are not able to remember. Why does the awareness of Shuddhatma constantly remain in this person? It is because the paap have been destroyed, that the awareness of Shuddhatma is constantly there.

Questioner: So does that subtle covering have to be removed?

Dadashri: ‘We’ will remove that for you.

One Attains Moksha Leisurely in the Lift of the Akram Path

Questioner: You have said that for Atmagnan (Knowledge of the Self), the step-less path of Akram is easier than the step-by-step Kramic path.

Dadashri: Yes, the Akram path means a ‘lift’ path. And Kramic means staircase; you have to climb step-by-step. And Akram means you have to get inside a lift. You do not have to do anything and you go straight to moksha. If you had to do anything, it would mean that you have not met ‘us’. Therefore, you do not have to do a thing. We only give you the Five Agnas (directives) just so that you do not stick your hands and feet out of the elevator.

Questioner: But that path is not easy to find anywhere.

Dadashri: No, it is there! It is wide open, and thousands of people have taken it. At least some twenty-five thousand people are on it, and you say you cannot find it, how can you say that? The path is there, but it is only a matter of you coming across it. But the timing has to be right. When the timing is right, you will find the path.

When you find all the mind’s solutions, the timing will be right. The mind will become satisfied that the path is right. Thereafter the train will get on to the tracks; otherwise it will never get on. And the train will keep traveling on the illusion (bhranti) line, and never come on the main line. And there would not be anyone anywhere on the main line. They are all on the illusory (bhrant) lines. Besides the Akram path (marg) is on the main line. That is why this is a ‘full-stop’ line; it is not a ‘comma’ path (marg).

What does the Kramic path mean? It means a step-by-step path. That is, if one finds a sant purush (saint; holy man), he would have climbed five thousand steps. Then if he meets an acquaintance, he would be taken to a ‘canteen’, where again he would descend three thousand steps. This is how he would climb and fall, climb and fall, continuously, over and over again. That is why it is not a safe-side path.

Questioner: What do you have to do to turn towards the Akram marg?

Dadashri: You have come here, so if you say, ‘Sir, bring about a solution for me.’ The solution will come. You can only say this if your obstacles (antaray) have broken. Otherwise one will say, ‘it will happen later, we will see to it later’ and two years go by. And then they come again. But because they have come, they do attain it. One or two cases may fail, out of a thousand; otherwise not. All the other cases are successful. Because who would forgo such a cash reward? And on top of that, you do not have to do anything. You only have to get in the lift.

Meeting the Gnani Is Itself the Required Qualification

Questioner: If anyone can attain this Gnan, are there any special qualifications?

Dadashri: No. The fact that one comes here, is itself his eligibility; no other qualification is required. Him coming here; in itself is the eligibility! Besides, when will they ever pass this kind of qualification? Whereas, here, we even accept those who have failed. We even put those who have failed, on the path to moksha (final liberation).

The Desire to Know Gives the Ultimate Thing

Questioner: Do we attain that high stage as well, after we attain Gnan?

Dadashri: Then there will be no difference between me and you. The only difference would be that I have sold off all the stock in my shop. And you still have to empty (nikal) your shop. That is the only difference. You still have to sell off all your stock; molasses, sugar and whatever is left, you have to get rid of. I have already gotten rid of everything, and now I am just sitting here. That is the only difference!

That is why I make you sit right beside me, where I myself am sitting. So when you have such a high seat, your worries will undoubtedly end. Besides, is it an easy thing to stop worrying?

In this world, there is not a single person who is free from worry; therefore, I am making you free from worry. But you can only become free from worry, when I place you on the same level as me, right? You cannot achieve it just like that.

Know that when your worries stop, that you will be going to moksha in just one more lifetime. When you no longer have worries, in spite of living in the worldly life (sansar), living with your wife and children, despite carrying out your worldly interaction (vyavahar); when you do not have any worries at all, you should understand that in one more lifetime, you will be going to final liberation (moksha), and that guarantee has already been given.

Questioner: It is difficult to attain such a state.

Dadashri: It is difficult. But as this Akram Vignan has come about, moksha has turned out to be easier than making khichadee (rice and lentils)! So it is difficult to attain this Akram Vignan; it is difficult for such merit karmas (punya) to awaken. And if you do get it, your salvation will be at hand. That is because once the merit karma (punya) come into effect, you do not have to do anything. You only have to get on the lift, making sure you do not dangle your arms and legs out, which is why we have given you the Five Agnas (directives). Those, you have to abide by.

Questioner: At the moment, we are seekers of Knowledge (jignyasu); we wish to know the difference between Knowledge (Gnan) and ignorance of the Soul (agnan).

Dadashri: At the moment your state is that of a seeker (jignyasu), but does this state prevail all day long?

Questioner: Most of the time.

Dadashri: No, you cannot be a seeker (jignyasu) the entire day! At the moment your state is that of a seeker. However, if you are in a hospital, your state becomes that of a patient. Whichever condition (avastha) you happen to be in, you accept it; therefore, that will be your state! But should you not find out, Who you really are, until now?

Questioner: We should.

Dadashri: Then why have not you done so?

Questioner: That search is still going on sir.

Dadashri: Where have you been looking?

Questioner: Through reading, spiritual gatherings (satsangs), through meeting the Gnani Purush. Our search goes on in this way.

Dadashri: That search is fine. Because of your searching, today you have managed to come to a Gnani Purush. Now you have to tell the Gnani Purush about anything you want; ask him for whatever you want. You are free to ask him for anything you want. Whatever you want, you are free to ask him. You are free to fill out a tender of however many things you want.

It is like this: if you go out to buy some radishes, even the radishes are valuable; they ask ten rupees for them. Whereas this, is something invaluable. So what do you have to buy? This would not have a value, would it? You yourself should be aware that this is something you have to get. And for that, you have to be ready for it. If a boy is to pick up an award at school, he goes to receive it with such readiness; he goes with such modesty, with so much respect, with so much humility to pick it up. So for this, would there also not be some prior preparation? You should have that kind of inner intent (bhavna) and awareness. How excited does a student become when he is told that he has won an award! Whereas here we are talking about giving you something that is priceless.

The Incomparable Powers of the Akram Path

Your salvation (kalyan) has happened when no duality (dwandva) in this world affects you; nothing affects you, and your awareness is of ‘I am the Absolute Soul (Parmatma)’! Or else you have faith in, ‘I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)’. Even if it sits in one’s conviction, one can move further. Therefore, it must first enter one’s understanding. And when it enters one’s understanding, one’s behavior (vartan) may change, or it may not change. But when can you say that he has come into Gnan (Knowledge)? You can say that he has come into Gnan, when his behavior ( vartan) has changed. It should reflect in one’s conduct – that is called Gnan.

The Gnan that ‘we’ give you, is the knowledge of Absolute Vision (Keval Darshan); we are giving you the knowledge of the permanent conviction of the right belief (kshayak samkit). Then if you abide by my Agnas, you get the benefit of both. And when does that become a permanent conviction of Knowledge (kshayak Gnan)? It is when that understanding manifests in your conduct (vartan) – that is when the permanent conviction (kshayak) of Gnan occurs.

I am giving you Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan), but because of this current time cycle (kaad) you are not able to digest it. Nevertheless, ‘we’ have to give you the full, complete Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan). If I do not give it to you fully, it is not likely to manifest within you; however, it cannot be digested on account of this era of the time-cycle (kaad). Even

though it is not digested, we do not have a problem with that. That is because when liberation (moksha) has come to us, what more would we need?

After giving you moksha such as this, if you get your sons and daughters married, why would that be problem? Otherwise, if you hurt any living being even slightly, are they likely to let you enter the final liberation (moksha)? Because the wife will say, ‘Hold on, you cannot leave yet. You can go after we get our youngest daughter married.’ And would you be able to get moksha by running away? Bhagwan says that it is not the worldly life (sansar) that hinders you, but it is ignorance (agnan) that obstructs you. Once ignorance of the Self (agnan) goes, then what is the problem?

Oh! To Know The Atma Is To…

Otherwise, the Atma that people refer to in general, is the mechanical atma. That in itself is illusion (bhranti). And then when you ask them, ‘Have you attained enlightenment or the right belief (samkit)?’ They will say, ‘No, we have not attained enlightenment.’ What else is there, after you have known the Atma? You are considered to have gone beyond kshayak samkit, closer to Absolute Knowledge (Keval Gnan ). The Atma is not something you can discern very easily. That is why Krupadudev has written on the cardinal book, ‘He who has known the Atma ; has known everything’.

This, that needs to be said, is written on the top. And if one does not Know (experience the Self), then he will struggle in vain. One has struggled in vain for countless past lives, and again he continues to do the same. That is what Krupadudev has said. Despite this, in this way, one day he will find the true thing.

It Can Be Known Through the Gnani’s Gnan of Separation

Questioner: Is it possible to know the Atma without knowing the anatma (non-Soul)?

Dadashri: If you know the Atma, you will know the anatma; however, that would be in terms of words. And you cannot know the Atma through that. And that is why we have said:

“Mun-vachan-kayani tamaam sangi kriyathi ‘hoo’ taddan asang chhu.”

“I am completely detached from all jointly associated activity of the mind, speech and body.”

All those associated joint activities (sangi kriyas) are the non-Self (anatma).

“Mun-vachan-kayana tamaam lepayamaan bhavo thi ‘hoo’ sarvathaa nirlep ja chhu.”

“Amidst all intents of the mind, speech and body that tend to corrupt and taint, ‘I’ remain eternally untainted.”

These intents that tend to taint, which arise in the mind, are all part of the non-Self (anatma).

Questioner: Does that mean it is possible to know the non-Self (anatma) and the Atma at the same time?

Dadashri: It is not possible to know both at the same time. When we give you this Gnan, everything will separate. But will you not have to know everything as it is?

Even now, what is an element (tattva)? They do not even know that, and they say, ‘I am the Atma, I am the pure Soul (Shuddhatma).’ They also say things like, ‘knowledge-vision-conduct (gnan-darshan-charitra)’. But where is the Atma in all that? There is no way of knowing that.

Questioner: So should I understand that I do not know anything?

Dadashri: That is all: ‘I do not know anything’, would be considered words of wisdom.

The Worldly Life Ends Through Vitarag Vision

Knowledge is a vision (drashti). This vision (drashti) is through the physical eyes. And the other, is the vision through Knowledge ( Gnan drashti), and if you learn how to see through it, your work will be done! And through these the physical eyes? Through them you will see, ‘He is my father-in-law, he is my maternal uncle (mama), this is my uncle (fuva)’. Is all that true? Is this all, correct? Can anyone be a father-in-law for good? As long as you are not divorced, he is your father-in-law. After you get divorced, that relationship will be over, the following day. That is why all these are nothing but temporary adjustments. Moreover, it is the Gnani Purush that can change that vision ( drashti).

Questioner: He changes the externally directed vision into an internally directed one.

Dadashri: No. It is not that kind of internally directed vision. Right now, you certainly do have internal vision. However, we change that vision; therefore you are able to see Atma, externally as well. Is there not also Atma on the outside, just as there is on the inside? But we change that vision ( drashti) for you. Except for that, ‘we’ do not remember the worldly life (sansar), even for a minute.

Questioner: And we do not forget the worldly life (sansar), even for a minute.

Dadashri: So the entire design is different. The entire vision (drashti) differs; nothing else. You are seeing this, while I am seeing it from the other direction. There is a difference in the whole vision. No other effort is needed here. If someone changed your vision (drashti) for you, then even you would see it exactly in the same way.

Once the vision (drashti) changes, that vision will blossom and slowly, one becomes Bhagwan (God). But until the vision has blossomed, your pocket will be picked and you will blame the culprit. Through flawed vision (drashti dosh), one will see pudgal (the non-Self)as individual separate entities.

Questioner: Is this considered the fault of the physical eyes (charmachakshu)? If we are in ignorance (agnanta), how are we supposed to know that we are in ignorance (agnanta)?

Dadashri: You would not know that. Then whatever one’s vision (drashti), that is how he becomes. This vision (drashti) of the physical eyes; is not a vision (drashti). One’s vision is according to one’s knowledge (gnan). His vision is proportionate to his knowledge. A person’s vision is based on whatever knowledge (gnan) he has acquired. And whatever that vision is like; that is how he sees everything around him. ‘He is my enemy, and he is my friend’, he will say. Now in this world, there is no friend and no enemy, but that is how his vision (drashti) has been composed, which is why he sees things in that way.

Questioner: If something is wrong, we should give it up. If we make that kind of effort, then gradually things might change.

Dadashri: Now if you want to go to moksha, you need to get rid of this duality (dwandva) of right-wrong. And if you want to come into the auspicious ( shubha), then you should have abhorrence (dwesh) and disdain (tiraskar) towards the things that are wrong, and attachment (raag ) for the things that are good. And for the pure (shuddha); you do not need to have attachment (raag) or abhorrence (dwesh) for things that are good or bad. That is because there is no such thing as good and bad; it is just impurity of vision. This looks good and this looks bad, that in itself is the impurity of the vision, and that itself is a wrong vision (mithyatva).

Therefore the poisoned vision must cease. That poisoned vision is what ‘we’ remove for you. Once that poisoned vision is gone, you will have the awareness of the Atma. Otherwise, it is not just any old thing, to be able to attain the awareness of the Atma. A state of detachment (vitaragata) should arise within you; attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh) should not occur at all. Attachment and abhorrence will not stop through practice. Even if you keep practicing to stop them, it is never possible to stop them from occurring. The state of the detached one (the Vitarag) who is free from attachment and abhorrence (raag and dwesh) is a vision (drashti)! At present, your vision is filled with attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh); whereas ‘ours’ is a detached vision (vitarag drashti). Therefore, the difference is only a matter of vision. And the Gnani Purush can change that vision in no time. After that, you will experience freedom (mukti).

Without a Change in Vision, Everything Is Meaningless

Questioner: So I was asking that the vision of attachment-abhorrence goes away, but what about the tendencies (vrutti) that still remain?

Dadashri: How can the vision (drashti) go away? No, there is no way that the vision can go away. The tendencies and inclinations (vrutti) may go away, but the vision will not. It is on account of the vision (drashti) that the entire world has become suppressed. What vision? And the answer is: the wrong vision. It cannot see things as they are. Therefore, one becomes engulfed (tanmayakar), because he cannot see it the way it is. The tendencies all break and new ones come up. But as long as the vision (drashti) does not change, the tendencies (vrutti) will keep changing. You do not benefit from that. Alas! You become a hermit; you do not even remember the sweet and sour food you eat. Those tendencies are broken, and even then, without changing the vision, nothing is accomplished.

Over here, there are so many of these saints and holy men (sant) who, if we sit next to them, ah! We feel such a sense of joy (anand)! You feel, gosh! Imagine what this holy person must be like! That is because the nature of ice, is that it always gives

coolness to everyone. Now if that particular holy man emits coolness, would you not think that there must be something there? But I would tell you that there is nothing there. It is because all he has done is thwarted his tendencies. Because he has beaten those tendencies, everything is stilled, and so it becomes helpful for others; however, he will have to stir them up again; only then will it work. Now how would the world know all this?

Questioner: But can they change the vision (drashti)?

Dadashri: The vision does not change: the tendencies will change. Except for some egos and certain tendencies, all other tendencies can be destroyed. We have many of these people over here, who are such experimentalists. And wherever they happen to be sitting, the surrounding atmosphere appears so beautiful! I myself have witnessed this. Nevertheless I discovered that there is nothing of substance here. You realize that when you ask them about Gnan.

Questioner: Of course there would not be!

Dadashri: So where there is no Gnan, there is no spirituality either. These are all paths of the material world (aadhibhautik). In times gone by, there used to be spiritual paths. In the present age, that which is not spiritual, people call spiritual.

Questioner: Dada, what if a person accepts that he is a blank piece of paper, that he is a clean slate?

Dadashri: If he accepts that, then it is very good; it would really be a wise thing.

Questioner: Then would his vision (drashti) also change?

Dadashri: Certainly it would change, but there should be someone that can change it for him. This practice (vyavahar), of needing someone to change one’s vision has been going on eternally. When your vision changes, it will seem like your perception of the world (srushti) will have changed. And that is called a changing of vision (drashti). If the perception of the world does not change, how can you say that the vision has changed? Otherwise, it will be a case of, whatever your vision (drashti); so will be your world (srushti).

Through the Grace of the Gnani, the Vision Will Change

Questioner: So the main thing is that your vision should be antarmukha (turned inward)?

Dadashri: This is how it is: there are so many people who keep looking within. You fools, there is nothing inside. You will only see what is inside after the Gnani Purush shows you. Otherwise, when you close your eyes, all you will see is women!

Questioner: Does that mean you need someone’s support, in order to have internal vision (antarmukha)?

Dadashri: Internal vision (antarmukha) can only occur with grace (krupa). How is it possible to have internal vision, without grace? Otherwise people will just see huge factories and grandiose images.

Questioner: When does such grace (krupa) occur?

Dadashri: Grace occurs when you see or meet (darshan) the Gnani Purush, when you show humility towards him, and you abide by his Agnas (directives) – that is when grace (krupa) happens. How else do you expect to receive grace just like that? Besides, would you be able to receive his grace by opposing him? The Gnani Purush has no objection with someone raising any opposition; however it would really harm the individual himself. ‘We’ do not mind if someone insults ‘us’. But what sort of a state would you be in? That is why ‘we’ make you understand the need to straighten up. When a snake enters its burrow, does it not straighten itself out? Does it go in crooked? Does it not become straight at that moment?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: That is how you have to straighten up, here in the presence of the Gnani Purush. Here crookedness will not work. Here, you must stay in the Agna. That is because you do not ever get a chance to do this Gnani Purush’s darshan.

Internalize the Senses or Become the Atma?

Questioner: What is said about the five senses (indriya), that they are all involved with outside business, is it those senses that need to be turned inward ( antarmukha)?

Dadashri: No, they have been turned inward for many days, before in the past. But by the time you turn them inwards, they instantly escape outside. It does not take them too long to escape, if they come across goods on the outside! Besides, these senses (indriya) have never settled down ever, for anybody. No one has managed to build a pool of (contain) these indriya. Nevertheless, despite eating food, that man claimed to be on a perpetual fast. Who was that man?

Questioner: Durvasa (a sage known for his anger and fierce nature).

Dadashri: Yes, and what has been said about Lord Krishna? That He was forever a celibate (brahmachari). That is because after entering the main state, nothing ever touches him. Therefore, whether you turn the indriya towards or away, or do anything to them, all it is, is one kind of exercise. Doing that, your body stays well and your mind stays somewhat well. But your work does not get done.

It is like, if you do not know your way from here to the station, will you reach the station if you just kept wandering around? So it is because of agnan (ignorance) that no work gets done. Therefore, you need to find out from the Gnani Purush, who you are, and what is binding you.

They Are All Mechanical Adjustments

Questioner: Now, in the state where the vision is directed internally (antarmukha) there is a voice that says, ‘What you are doing is wrong’ and things like that. Is it Atma that is speaking to us?

Dadashri: That cannot be the Atma; that is a tape record. Just as there is this tape recorder on the outside, inside there is an original tape record. Is that what you are calling the Atma? Even prominent officers say, ‘It is my Atma speaking’. Goodness, can that be the Atma? It is a tape record.

Questioner: If it is not the Atma talking, then who is the one saying, ‘what you are doing is wrong’?

Dadashri: That is a tape record. The knowledge of worldly interaction (vyavahar gnan) that you know, that knowledge of worldly interaction, is not the Atma. It is Knowledge of the Self (nischay Gnan), that is the Atma. The worldly knowledge that you know, has been taped before and that is the voice that you are hearing. And that is why it bothers you that, ‘this is how it should be in the worldly interaction (vyavahar), and I am doing something wrong’. So that cannot be the Atma.

Moreover, the Atma does not speak; it does not eat. It does not drink and it does not breath. That kind of worldly interaction (vyavahar) is not the Atma. All these are not the functions of the Atma. The Atma’s work is completely different. The qualities of the Atma are different.

Just like the gold and copper in this ring, are mixed together, and if you wanted to separate them, who would you give the work to?

Questioner: To a goldsmith.

Dadashri: Yes. That is because the goldsmith has knowledge about it. Similarly, there are two parts to this body, the Atma (Self) and anatma (the non-Self). He that knows the intrinsic properties of both the Atma and anatma, is able to make the separation; by using the entire laboratory he can separate the two.

This is all a mechanical adjustment. That which does all the talking is a record. What do they call the listener? They call him the receiver! Therefore, these are all mechanical adjustments. Even these eyes are a mechanical adjustment. The entire brain is mechanical, so when you pour cold water over it, it settles down. If not, the brain can even boil, and when it gets overheated, do you not have to apply cold packs on your head? There is such a great Atma (Bhagwan) that sits within you, and yet the time comes, when you have to apply these cold packs! However, it only cools down inside, when you apply these cold packs; otherwise, you will keep simmering on the inside.

As long as there is ignorance (agnan); the Atma is a sufferer (vedak), and whatever suffering that arises, one takes upon himself saying, ‘I am suffering’. These are all mechanical adjustments. The Atma remains inside, up to a certain limit of suffering. However, if there is a lot of intense suffering, a person will lose consciousness, and when the suffering is extremely excruciating, the Atma comes out altogether.

If we ask ‘What happened to the Sheth?’ They would say, ‘he failed! (his heart failed!).’ Goodness, he used to pass at school! But he has ‘failed’ here. These are all mechanical adjustments. And so when one feels intense suffocation, the Atma leaves. Do they not call it a heart attack? That army attack is different, and this attack is different. And in this attack, the entire Atma gets out. How can people in Hindustan (India) be in such a state! If you go against the laws that prevail, this is how you end up.

The Ego Is the Cause of All Effects

Questioner: Does the soul (jiva) suffer because the body suffers?

Dadashri: Of course! If the body suffers, the soul (jiva) suffers as well. That is because you believe, ‘this body is mine’.

Now a person, who has this Gnan, is not affected by the mind and speech. Even he will be affected by the body. Right now, if a tooth ached, it would even let the Gnani know of it. Therefore in this body, there is effective soul (chetan). But because there is Gnan, it does not allow causes to occur. One will settle the karmic account (hisaab) peacefully and with equanimity.

Questioner: So when the Atma has left, why does the body no longer feel any pain?

Dadashri: How can the body feel pain after that? There is still ego (ahamkar) in it at the present time. It tells the body, ‘I am’, and ‘it is mine’. And it is the one that suffers all this. Therefore, all this belongs to the ego (ahamkar) itself.

Questioner: But the ego is lifeless (jada).

Dadashri: The ego is not lifeless; it is mishrachetan (‘I’ with the wrong belief).

Questioner: What is mishrachetan, I did not understand that.

Dadashri: Mishrachetan means that it contains the intent (bhaav) of soul (chetan). That self intent (chetan bhaav) and the non-living (jada) have come together, to form a mixture, which is why it is called mishrachetan. And the mind is non-living (jada). Everything the mind thinks is all non-living. However, the ego (ahamkar) is mishrachetan. This body is non-living (jada). But it is partially touched by the mishrachetan which is why it suffers the effects.

Besides the main Atma, there is also another part. The world is not even aware of the main Atma. They believe that what they see is itself atma (chetan). That which the world considers soul (chetan), has no soul (chetan) in it at all, it does not even have a fraction of soul in it; not even enough to guild with. And that would be called illusory attachment (maya)! It makes you believe, that which is not soul (chetan) is soul – that itself is Bhagwan’s (Atma’s) illusory attachment (maya)! And the Gnani Purush solves that illusion (maya).

Questioner: ‘It is not possible to change this illusory attachment (maya) of mine; it is very difficult’. The Lord has said that.

Dadashri: It is so difficult that, that illusory attachment (maya) cannot be disturbed. So how can it be removed? Therefore, the Gnani Purush can free you from that illusory attachment (maya). That is because he himself has become free from that illusory attachment, so he is able to free you from it; otherwise this illusory attachment (maya) will not budge at all.

How Can Doubts About the Pure Soul Be Dispelled?

Questioner: When the pudgal (non-Self body complex) and the Atma are separated, does one then become free?

Dadashri: The pudgal has nothing at all to do with it. When the Atma understands its own nature (swaroop); when that awareness is realized, it then manifests. And when one gets a taste of this, the work is done. Therefore the Atma and the pudgal (non-Self) have nothing to do with one another. This Chandubhai is outside of the Atma. It is because you have strayed so far away from the Atma, that you say, ‘I am Chandubhai’.

All throughout the duration of the worldly life (sansar), the Atma has always stayed as the Atma; it has never moved.

In the very end, when it has to go to the final liberation (moksha), it is the element of motion (gati sahayak tattva) that carries it there. Through that, the Atma remains as the Atma. What I am saying, is that the Atma does not face any difficulty; that is what this time of worldly life (sansar) is like. But it is the ego (ahamkar) that arises within, which is the one who suffers; it experiences the pleasant (shata), and it also suffers the unpleasant (ashata). And it is because of this suffering that all this has come about; the wrong belief has arisen. There have been no changes in the Atma; the Atma has not been spoiled. Here ‘we’ remove one’s illusion ( bhranti), and ‘we’ give him the entire Atma.

Someone may ask, ‘Is the Atma of a non-Self realized person (agnani) the same as the Atma of Lord Mahavir?’ Yes, in every way, where it concerns elements (dravya), qualities (guna) and phases (paryaya). But unless the ego (ahamkar) goes, the state of being free of doubt (nihshank) will not arise. That is because the one who has the doubts (shanka) is the ego itself. Therefore, as long as the ego is there, no living being (jiva) can become doubt-free (nihshank),and norwill his doubts disappearorgo away. Doubt does not go away for anyone but the Gnani Purush. When the Gnani Purush eradicates one’s doubt (shanka), one becomes doubt-free (nihshank).

The Vision Changes; Not the Atma

Questioner: So can other elements (tattva) affect the Atma?

Dadashri: Of course, they do. It is indeed all these other elements that affect it. Therefore, when it goes to the abode of the Liberated Souls ( Siddha kshetra); there are no other elements there and so, it is not affected by anything. As long as there are other elements (tattva) around, it will continuously be affected. However, when the Gnani Purush frees it from effects it goes off to moksha. Nevertheless, through the entire extent of time of worldly interaction (vyavahar kaad), the Atma has never been spoiled at all. It is only a matter of the Gnani Purush, setting right, the illusion (bhranti) that has befallen, which has distorted the vision (darshan); therefore it becomes free from effects and goes off to moksha (final liberation).

Now, how did that vision (darshan) become wrong? When you go to Northern India, you will come across many monkeys there. How do they catch them? They take a pot with a narrow opening, put some chickpeas (chana) in it and place it under a tree. The monkeys then come down the trees and stick their hands in the pots, to get the chickpeas. When they try to get to the chickpeas, they slowly squeeze their whole hand in the pot to get the chickpeas. But once they grab a fistful, because they cannot get their hand out again, they start screaming. Even then, they will not release their fist. What do they think? They keep thinking that someone inside is grabbing my hand. When I stuck my hand in there, it was me that stuck it in there, so why is it not coming out now? So the monkeys come under the illusion; they have the wrong understanding of ‘someone has got hold of me from within’. And so they keep screaming, but they will not let go of their fist. Similarly, people are crying out and screaming but they will not let go of what is in their fist.

The Method for the Final Solution Is Different

It is like this: what is this vision (drashti) usually like? If you sit in such a way, you will see two lights instead of one. If your eyes just went slightly this way, would you not see two lights? Now realistically, there is just one. But you see two. When you drink tea in a saucer, you may see the circle inside it as double circles. Why is that? It is because we have two eyes, that we are seeing double. These eyes are seeing, and the other eyes are seeing as well. However it is a false vision (mithya drashti). And that is why it shows you everything wrongly. Now if it showed you what is right, you would be free of affliction from external sources (upadhi), you would be free from all suffering from the outside. The science of those who are absolutely detached from attachment and abhorrence (Vitarag vignan) is such that, it annihilates all pain and suffering (dukh); that science itself is such that it frees you from all misery (dukh). Furthermore, science (vignan) is like that; science always functions independently to produce results (kriyakari). Therefore, once you know this science, the science itself picks up the work, and does it all; you do not have to do a thing. As long as you have to do something, the intellect (buddhi) is there. And as long as the intellect exists, the ego ( ahamkar) will be there; and as long as the ego is around, you will not succeed in bringing an end to any of this, even if you wanted to.

Questioner: How can one begin to change this vision (drashti)?

Dadashri: The change in the vision (drashti) starts to happen, when you meet a Gnani Purush, and you come to hear his satsang, that is when your vision will gradually start changing. At this moment, while you are listening, your vision is changing a little. In doing that, as you become more familiar in one or two months, your vision will change. If not, then you should just say to the Gnani Purush, ‘Sir, will you change my vision (drashti)?’, and in a matter of a day, or only just one hour, he will change it for you.

Gnan Opens Up the Truth

Winding and entanglement of wrong belief (bhranti) has happened. Nothing has happened to the Atma. The Atma has remained as it is. Only the layers of coverings (avaran) of illusion have wound themselves around it, and because of that, the egoism (ahamkar) has arisen. Then it is the egoism that becomes the doer-sufferer (karta-bhokta); it suffers pain (dukh), and it is also the one that enjoys pleasure ( sukh).

It is to those who excessively use their intellect (buddhishadi), that through their intellect (buddhi), the Atma appears to be doing something; therefore it must also be

experiencing. Now the entire world is dependent on the intellect. That is because as long as there is ‘I’ (Hoo), as long as there is the ego ( ahamkar), it is dependent on the intellect, and it sees through the intellect. Therefore, it is not possible to observe (nirikshan) something that is real (satya). Besides, the Gnanis of the world would not reveal the exact knowledge openly; however ‘we’ openly declare to this world, that if they want to understand this through the exact knowledge; then the Atma has never done any of these things. None of what you see has ever happened. It is just that the belief is wrong. If someone changes that wrong belief, then everything would be the way it was. No part of the Atma has ever been spoiled, nor has it ever encountered a problem. When the wrong belief that exists, is completely turned, then it would become the way it was; one enters one’s own Self form (swaroop), and one’s own energies (shakti) will thrive.

Just the belief has changed. The Atma would not ‘do’ any of this. The Atma is just the Absolute Soul (Parmatma). If the Atma possessed any of the qualities (guna) ‘to do’ any of these things, it would never be freed from the worldly life (sansar). The Atma itself is untouchable (nirlep); it is detached (asang); but only if one can understand this. Otherwise, you will not understand what Bhagwan says. It is like, the listener uses his intellect excessively (buddhishadi), and the speaker is the knower (Gnani), so how can you reconcile the two? The listener is buddhishadi so he measures through his intellect. And the other employs knowledge as a measure, when he speaks. How does that one reach this one? So, each interprets in his own language.

It is just a wrong belief that has set in. When you figure this exactly, the Atma, all along in its state in the worldly life (sansar) has had a wrong belief and nothing else. When the wrong belief is removed, nothing else has happened. It is because of this wrong belief that the prakruti (non-Self complex) has arisen.

Now if you go in front of a mirror, do you have to tell the mirror to show you your face? You do not have to say anything, do you? Why is that? Even then, does it not show you your exact face? Does it not show the slightest defects? Now because the mirror gets used everyday, it is not valued. However, it is worth understanding its great value.

Right now, are you able to see your shadow, inside your home? No. But when you go out into the streets, you will see your shadow. So when you turn this way, there will be a shadow, and when you turn that way, there will be a shadow. How long does that shadow take to form? So therefore, this whole world is scientific circumstantial evidence. Nothing has happened and nothing has been made. The world is nothing but scientific circumstantial evidence. Bhagwan has not had to do anything in all this. Even this mind-speech-body complex (prakruti) that has come about is a result of scientific circumstantial evidence; and the prakruti is effective. This mind-speech-body is effective and it is its effectiveness which affects the Atma . That is because the belief that one has, is a wrong belief. The Gnani Purush changes that wrong belief, and thereafter, one no longer feels all these effects.

Only Ignorance Influences the Entire Worldly Life

Questioner: If the Soul (chetan) becomes pure (shuddha), does it ever have to come back?

Dadashri: It never has to come back. Once it attains purity, it means that the ego (ahamkar) has gone, and so it never has to return. As long as the ego is there, it sows the seed of, ‘I did it’, and from that, the ego arises again. As long as one believes, ‘I did this’, the ego (ahamkar) will arise again.

Questioner: So the Atma must have been impure to begin with?

Dadashri: No. The Atma is pure indeed.

Questioner: So then how did the Atma become impure?

Dadashri: It is people who kept calling out your name, ‘Shanti. Shanti’. These people give you ignorance (agnan), through which your vision (darshan) changes. The entire vision changes and that is its influence.

Say there is a sheth (merchant; employer) who speaks nicely all day; all he talks about is justice and morality. Normally he is a person with great humility, but what would happen if he drinks half a gallon of alcohol?

Questioner: Then he will act crazy.

Dadashri: So would that mean the sheth has become bad? No, it is the influence of the alcohol. And in the same way, the influence of ignorance (agnan) has set in.

Questioner: If we were once pure, then how did we become soiled?

Dadashri: Before that, the sheth was in a good state, so when he drank half a gallon alcohol, how did he become tainted? The very same sheth starts to talk all kind of nonsense. ‘I am the Governor Sayajirao Maharaj’ he will say. Would you not understand from that, that he is intoxicated?

Questioner: But was it not pure to begin with? Is it because it did not have enough energy of its own, that it became impure (ashuddha) again?

Dadashri: It is pure, even now it is pure, nothing has happened to it. This is just influence (amal). When the influence subsides, then it is as if nothing happened. The day before, you were Chandubhai, and the following day, the influence has diminished so you have become pure (shuddha). The following day, within just an hour, you become pure; if the Atma did become impure, how is it possible for it to become pure in just an hour? This is the same sort of intoxication and influence as the one who speaks while inebriated. That is how one becomes intoxicated by ‘I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai’; the wrong belief has set in.

Questioner: You say that the Atma has always been pure (shuddha). There must be another power (shakti) that is even more powerful than it, so would that not be why the Atma has become impure (ashuddha)?

Dadashri: The Atma has infinite power (shakti), and so does the non-Self complex (pudgal). The energy of the pudgal has bound the whole Atma and now, it will not let it go. Therefore, even the non-living matter (jada) has infinite energy. Have you not seen an atomic bomb explosion? So even matter (jada) has infinite energy.

Questioner: If the energy of matter is considered to be greater than the energy of the Atma, then can it take away the Atma again?

Dadashri: What do you mean by again?

Questioner: Why? Once it has become pure (shuddha), can it be dragged back into impurity?

Dadashri: No. After becoming pure, nothing touches it.

Questioner: But was it not pure to start with? Did it not become impure (ashuddha) later?

Dadashri: Its fundamental form (swaroop) is always pure. But it is this vision (darshan) that has become impure (ashuddha), that becomes pure ( shuddha) again. And so the ego (ahamkar) is annihilated.

Questioner: What I am trying to say, is that the Atma was once pure; it was free from all passions (nirvikari).

Dadashri: And it is free from passion (nirvikari) even now!

Questioner: That is true, but did you not say that the energy of matter (jada shakti) has bound it?

Dadashri: What it means is that the Atma’s energy (shakti) has become covered, and that energy has become mixed with the energy ofmatter ( jada shakti); therefore, the energy of matter (jada shakti) has taken over. Therefore even if you wanted to be free you could not. You can only escape from it, if you go to a Gnani. Otherwise you could never be free, even after a hundred thousand avatar (lifetimes). Instead you would be better off, if you were bound by iron chains; at least you could break the chain and free yourself. Alas, this chain will never break! And just as one becomes influenced by alcohol; here a person is influenced by the ego (ahamkar). That is how the wagon rolls.

Questioner: Even though the influence (amal) is there, does the Atma still not remain pure (shuddha)?

Dadashri: The Atma is completely detached and indifferent (udaseen). As long as you exist in the ego (ahamkar) the Atma is detached ( udaseen). The Atma has no attachment (raag) in this, nor does it have any abhorrence (dwesh) in this. It says, ‘Come to me, when it suits you. When you have cleared all your karmic accounts (hisaab), and you have done everything you like, you can come to me,’ did you understand that?

Questioner: What I was trying to say is that if the Atma was pure, then no one can make something that is pure (shuddha), impure. So how did it become impure?

Dadashri: It has never become impure (ashuddha). It is just that its one energy – the energy of vision (darshan shakti) – has been covered up. Just like the sheth (businessman) himself is pure (shuddha), but once he drank the alcohol, one of the energies became covered up, which is why he speaks nonsensically. So in the same way this, ‘I am Chandubhai’ is speaking. People called you Chandubhai and you believed it, so

one of the energies became covered. When that became covered; this became wrong. So if someone removes this intoxicant for him, he would be cured. What else has happened here? Nothing else has happened. The same has happened here, as what had happened to the sheth. Would the sheth’s (vision) become covered or not? Would one’s whole perception not become covered? That is what has happened here.

Questioner: We can believe that. But if the fundamental pure Soul (Shuddhatma) has greater energy (shakti) then why does it become influenced?

Dadashri: But right now, does it not have that energy (shakti). At present, the fundamental Atma is completely detached (udaseen).

Questioner: Has it been detached (udaseen)from the very beginning?

Dadashri: It is always detached (udaseen); it is free from attachment and abhorrence (vitarag). What it is saying is that, as long as you like all this, you should carry on doing it. But if you do not like it, you should remember my name, or the Gnani Purush’s or whatever support you can find and come back to me. As long as you like it on the outside, you can wander around as it suits you. Otherwise, return to yourself:that is what it is saying.

If you can just understand this much: that when the sheth drinks alcohol, he changes; then all your questions will be answered. And in this, the only alcohol one is made to drink, here is, ‘I am Chandu’, which has given rise to the ego (ahamkar). So this is all just an influence (amal ), and one is talking under this influence. He just carries on with his talking, perpetually in a state of intoxication, and there is no end to his talking!

However, the Atma is completely detached (udaseen) all throughout time in worldly life (sansar kaad). How can this get through to people? Just half a gallon of alcohol causes changes in the sheth; whereas here it is alcohol everyday! As soon as you wake up in the morning, people keep making you drink alcohol. Do people not tell you, ‘Come in Chandubhai, come in Chandubhai. You are my daughter’s father-in-law, you are her husband, her uncle, his uncle’? And even you believe it. This is precisely the ‘alcohol’ you drink, and all the while, it is making you intoxicated. This very alcohol has made you drunk, and you are saying, ‘How can I have drunk alcohol?’ This entire world staggers around from drinking this alcohol. Moreover, when a person does drink alcohol, people blame the alcohol. Hey you! Why are you blaming the alcohol?

Who Is the Doer of Karma?

After you have known the reality, there is nothing more for you to know. Thereafter, You are yourself the Knower-Seer (Gnata-Drashta), with absolute bliss (parmanandi), and the Lord of eternal happiness (sanatan sukh); therefore, no ownership remains. Besides, all the happiness (sukh) that you see in the world; is all falsely laden claim (aropit) of happiness. Where the Atma is, there is nothing but bliss ( sukh), but you have falsely attributed everywhere outside, that happiness lies in these things, or happiness lies in this. That is why you get happiness from those things, but there is no bliss there. Bliss is within one’s own Self.

Questioner: So who stops that illusion (bhranti)?

Dadashri: The Gnani Purush can stop that illusion.

Questioner: Say I go back home after I take Gnan from you. When I wake up the next day, the illusion within will make me do the same thing again and again, telling me, ‘No, you have to do this. Or else you will not accomplish anything.’

Dadashri: No, it is not like that. Then the light (prakash) will take over. It is like that sheth, after he has had a bit to drink in the evening, what does he say? ‘I am king of so and so.’ Why does he talk like that? Has that sheth gone mad? No. He is under the influence of the alcohol, which has given rise to illusion (bhranti).

Questioner: What placed him in those circumstances, was it the Atma that put him there, or was it illusion (bhranti) that put himthere? And can the Atma not control him?

Dadashri: The Atma has nothing to do with it. This is all the ego’s doing. The one that is suffering is the ego (ahamkar). The one that suffers the unhappiness (dukh) is the ego, and the one that enjoys happiness (sukh) is also the ego. Therefore, when the ego disappears, you become the Atma and you are then worthy of freedom (mukti). It is because of ego that the entire worldly life (sansar) stays standing, and it is also because of ego that we have attachment-abhorrence (raag-dwesh). And all because of ego you are the doer of karma. When there is no more ego (ahamkar), you will cease to be the doer of karma. Right now, you are the doer of karma. Therefore, you are also the sufferer. It is because of illusion (bhranti) that this doership arises within you.

So the sheth was not talking gibberish, so long as he was not drinking alcohol. But as soon as he drinks the alcohol, he begins his gibberish, and would even use abusive language at someone. You could then say that karma was done by being inebriated; it was done through illusion (bhranti ). But then would he not have to suffer the consequences? The other person is not likely to let it go, is he? Would he not berate him by saying, ‘You were drunk and you were swearing at me.’ So that is how these karmas have to be suffered. And because you yourself become the doer of the karma, you yourself are giving support to the karma. ‘I am doing it.’ Goodness sakes! You do not even have the power (shakti) to defecate, and why are you saying, ‘I am the one doing all this.’ That is precisely why these karmas are being bound, and you end up wandering around in the four realms of existence (gati). When you understand everything from the Gnani Purush, the relentless wanderings will come to an end.

In Whom Does the Impurity Arise?

Questioner: Why would impure phases (ashuddha paryaya) arise from the Atma, in spite of how cautious one is?

Dadashri: But how does this benefit you?

Questioner: Do we not bind karma?

Dadashri: If the impure phases (ashuddha paryaya) arise out of you, then of course you would bind karma! They do not come from the Atma at all. There are no impure phases in the Atma whatsoever. So if you want to understand what exactly it is, then these impure phases ( ashuddha paryaya) and pure phases (shuddha paryaya) all arise within you.

I will tell you the principle truth. There are two kinds of atma: one is the original (muda) Atma, and through this main Atma, a second one has come about; the atma that is interactive in the world (vyavahar atma). The fundamental Atma is the Self ( nischay Atma) and it has not changed at all. It is exactly as it has always been, and from it, the atma that is interactivein the world (vyavahar atma) has been created. Just as if you look in the mirror, would you not see two Chandubhai?

Questioner: Yes, we would see two.

Dadashri: In the same way, the atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma) has come about. ‘We’ call it pratishthit atma. One has done one’s own instilling of life (pratishtha) in it. Therefore, if you still keep doing the instilling (pratishtha) of ‘I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai,’ then you will create a new pratishthit atma for the next life. If you believe this worldly interaction (vyavahar) to be true, then a new atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma) will be created. The Self (nischay Atma) is the same as it has always been. Should you ever touch it; you will have attained your salvation! Right now, you are touched by only the atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma).

This is just the ego (ahamkar) that has arisen. People say, ‘Pain (dukh) is being inflicted on my Atma.’ ‘My Atma is ruined.’ Listen here! If your Atma is spoiled, then it will never be made better. Anything that has the potential energy (shakti) to spoil; can never be improved; besides, if it is spoiling right here, then even when it gets to the abode of the Liberated Souls (Siddha kshetra), it will spoil over there. But that is the real (nischay) Atma, and the atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma) has become spoiled. The one which is spoiled is the vyavahar, and it is the vyavahar that needs to be made shuddha (pure). If you do not meet a Gnani, then you must make your worldly interaction (vyavahar) good (shubha), and if you do meet a Gnani, then you must make your interaction in the world (vyavahar)pure (shuddha). That is all you have to do. Did you understand?

So there are no impure phases (ashuddha paryaya) coming from the Atma. All the impure phases come from the atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma).Now those phases (paryaya) are the most subtle (sookshma); it is the subtler (sookshmatar) of circumstances (avastha) that we are referring to as phases (paryaya). These are all big, big circumstances (avastha); they are impure circumstances (ashuddha avastha); gross circumstances (avastha). Is ‘I am Chandubhai’ just any ordinary circumstance?

Worldly Atma Mistaken for The Absolute Atma

Questioner: Do the properties (gunas) of the atma that interacts in the world (vyavahar atma) and the real (nischay) Atma differ?

Dadashri: Of course they differ! The real (nischay) Atma is the fundamental (muda) Atma.

Questioner: There is just one Atma with different qualities (gunas), is that what it is?

Dadashri: It is not like that. If a man is a big agent for selling dried dates, people refer to him as the, ‘dried date merchant).’ But in court, he is considered a lawyer. If he practices law, would you not call him a lawyer? In the same way if you are engrossed with your worldly life (vyavaharik) activity, you are the atma that interacts in the worldly life (vyavahar atma),and if you are absorbed inthe Self( nischay),thenyou arethe real Atma, nischay Atma. Basically you are the same person, but it all depends on which activity you are in.

So these people have believed that the atma that interacts in the world (vyavaharik atma) is the real Atma (nischay Atma ). They may say that it is vyavaharik atma, but in their knowledge and understanding, they believe it is the real (nischay) Atma. According to them, ‘This is the Atma, and if it isn’t the Atma, then how can we speak? How can we walk? All this walking about, chatting, studying scripture, ‘I am reading and I am remembering it’ – they regard all that as, ‘This is the Atma; there cannot be any other Atma.’ That is what they know. And all this is nothing but the Atma’s shadow. If you chase this shadow, then even after hundreds of thousands of years, you will not find the fundamental (muda) Atma. Akram Vignan has revealed this: why are you chasing the shadow? Despite that, the line of the Kramic marg (step-by-step path to Atmagnan) is not altogether wrong. However, it is the shadow itself, that they believe as the Atma. What I am trying to say is the Atma is the Atma, and the shadow is the shadow.

Questioner: It is the belief which is entirely wrong.

Dadashri: If the belief is wrong to begin with, then everything becomes wrong. Then what else is left?

Discharge of Tangible Effects but Bondage Through Belief

Questioner: So, is one the relative self (pratishthit atma), and the other the pure Soul (Shuddhatma)?

Dadashri: The real (nischay) Atma is the pure Soul (Shuddhatma) and the one that is engaged in worldly interaction (vyavahar), is the worldly atma (vyavahar atma – the relative self); that is the pratishthit atma. That is because you instill life into it ( pratishtha). Now if there is a man, whose name is Chandubhai, and he has not attained Gnan, if he says, ‘I am Chandubhai, I am his maternal uncle (mama), I am his paternal uncle (kaka)’, then whatever he is saying is the karma from before, and that karma is unfolding and it is materializing (rupak) in his speech. That which started in the form of planning (yojana), is now coming into effect (rupak). The fact that it has materialized, is not a problem, but then again, the very same thing becomes instilled in his belief (shraddha); therefore, he sows another seed. So this is how he instills life into the non-Self (pratishtha); he instills life in the body itself with – this is who I am. Hence, another body arises again; another statue (murti) is formed. So with this successive recurring instillation of life (pratishtha), he constructs a new statue, while the old statue disappears. And because the instillation of life occurred; it continues to yield the fruit (consequences; effect).

It is just the belief of the relative self (pratishthit atma); the atma in which you have instilled life in (pratishthit atma). It is a wrong belief that has come about, which is why a person keeps continuing to instill life (pratishtha): ‘I am this, I am this.’ And so the last instillation of life (pratishtha) disappears, and a new instillation of life appears. One that says: ‘I am Chandubhai’, and ‘I am his uncle’, ‘I am having this thought.’ This was the influx of karma (aashrav) of the previous instillation of life (pratishtha). And that influx of karma (aashrav) then becomes a discharge (nirjara). Now during the discharge, the very same instillation is done again, which then discharges. Now if he has been given this Gnan; what it says is that when he says, ‘I am Chandubhai’ and ‘I am his uncle’; it all belongs to the previous instillation of life (pratishtha). However, because he has the Gnan today, the belief (shraddha), ‘I am really Chandubhai’, has disappeared; therefore he does not do another instillation of life. Which is why this is called the blockage of influx of karma (samvar); no more binding of karma (bandh), and he constantly discharges karma (nirjara). What do you regard as binding of karma (bandh)? The binding of karma (bandh) occurs in the absence of Gnan. Therefore, whatever instillation of life (pratishtha) you do, that very same instillation arises again.

Now a person may say, ‘of course you should steal’, and he steals and takes bribes. He talks nicely to people, and tells them, ‘I will do this for you, do that for you, I will get all your work done.’ and he takes a bribe from them of a thousand rupees. That which is doing all these things is, the relative non-Self; the atma into which life was instilled (pratishthit atma). This was the planning (yojana), which has now materialized (rupak). Whatever he says, is an effect (rupak), even his encounter with the other person is an effect, and when he takes the thousand rupees, it is also an effect (rupak). The taking of the bribe; the inner intent (bhaav), all that, is decided for him, and that too he accepts it willingly. And later in his mind he has the inner intent – now he has not taken the Gnan – that ‘I am taking all these bribes, but ultimately will it not be me who has to suffer the consequences? I should not be taking these bribes.’ So the planning (yojana), to not take bribes, has been constructed in the atma that has been instilled with life (pratishthit atma) for the next life. Therefore, in the next life, he will not take bribes. Do you understand this blue print?

Now, there are many people who do not take bribes. A man’s wife tells him, ‘All the people you studied with, all of them have built bungalows; you are the only one who lives in a rented room.’ And the man starts thinking, ‘Am I the one here who is doing something wrong?’ He really believes in his principles, he has faith that his principle is not wrong; that the principle gives happiness – he knows all of that. But when his wife tells him this, he thinks to himself, ‘I am making a mistake in not taking bribes.’ That is when a negative intellect (buddhi) takes over and says, ‘Dear man, you have to do his work anyway, so what is wrong with accepting a bribe?’ So then he creates the inner intent (bhaav), that one should accept bribes. So he tells the other person, ‘I will get your work done.’ And the other person says, ‘Sir, I will give you five hundred rupees.’ However, when the other person comes to give him the money, he is not able to accept it, he feels suffocation, and suffers as a result of external sources (upadhi). This is because in his previous life, he had done the pratishtha (instillation) of, ‘It is wrong to accept a bribe, one should not accept a bribe.’ Therefore, it does not allow him to accept the bribe. He may have told the man to bring the money. But the moment he takes the money in his hands, he trembles, and he is unable to touch it. So he cannot take a single penny; however, he has sown a new seed for the next life of, ‘I want to take bribes.’ He has not taken anything in this lifetime (avatar), but he has sown a seed for the next lifetime. In this whole wide world, what kind of seed is man not planting? And how is he to know what he is going to get trapped in? Did you understand all that? Is it not an irrefutable principle ( siddhant)? Is it not a systematic principle?

Questioner: Yes.

Dadashri: Over here, their planning (yojana) lasts for five years. Within those five years, in the first year, they decide that in certain places they will construct dams, in some places they will do this, and in some places they will do this. They make these kinds of decisions. They then put it all down on paper and the entire drawing (blueprint) is prepared on paper. Once this part is sanctioned, the plan (yojana) is then submitted to materialize (rupak); that is when it is considered as being ‘born’ and from then on, the planning continues to take shape. In the same way, this planning occurs first. So the planning takes place in one avatar (lifetime), it takes shape in the next avatar, and while it materializes, yet another plan (yojana) is being drawn up – this is how we should do it, this is what we want to put into it – so the construction continues in this way. Therefore this is an absolute irrefutable principle (siddhantik).

Only the Living Gnani Can Illuminate the Truth

Now, this kind of information is not found in books. So how can a person change? What you will find in books are things like, ‘you should put chilies in the kadhee (yoghurt soup), salt, turmeric, jaggery. But they do not tell you anything else, or how you are supposed to measure it. So one cannot really understand this from within, can he? Therefore, the entire world considers the relative non-Self; the atma that has been instilled with life (pratishthit atma) as the Atma, and they are trying to make it still. However, even that is not wrong; of course you have to make it still. Besides, by stilling it, one does experience some happiness (anand). However long the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma) is made still (sthir); it becomes still at night in one’s sleep anyway, but for as long as he is able to make it still during the daytime, he will feel contentment for that duration of time. But what is that contentment like? That when the stillness is broken, the person reverts to the way he was. Now if he could remember, at the same time, that the main (muda) Atma is itself steady and still (sthir), then, he himself can make the adjustment. But people do not know about the muda Atma at all. It is this life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma) that has come to be accepted as the real Atma, and that is really not the Atma. The life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma) is the non-Self body complex (pudgal), and there is no Atma (chetan) in it whatsoever.

There is no Atma (chetan) in what the world considers as possessing Atma. This is my discovery. ‘We’ are telling you as ‘we’ see it ‘ourselves’. That is not written in the scriptures (shastras). In the scriptures, they tell you to improve this (the pratishthit atma), ‘Keep on improving it’, they say. Should there not be some kind of methodical way? Is there not some sort of method for improvement? The method which is shown in the scriptures has not entered into people’s awareness; it has been shown in very subtle ways. But would it not be just through words that it has been shown? What that means, is that it has been shown through words, like if you go to Mumbai, this is what it is like in Mumbai, and there the shoreline of Juhu beach is like this; however, only through words. How did you benefit from that? So what do the scriptures (shastras) show you? They use words to show you. It would not be through experience, would it? Through the scriptures, you do not receive experience, do you? Therefore, without the presence of the Gnani Purush, none of this can be solved.

The Inexpressible Experience of the Original Element

Questioner: Tell us about when you experienced this Gnan on the bench at Surat railway station in 1958.

Dadashri: The experience is something; how much of it can I tell you? That I experienced bliss (anand), the entire world disappeared into oblivion, and I saw everything: ‘what the world is, who the doer is, how it works, who you are, who am I?’ I came to know all the explanations. However, I am explaining all this to you through words. You will never be able to understand the fundamental; real (muda) thing. That is because there are no words there. The explanation comes through speech. However many words that can be said, I am telling you all that on the outside but that cannot be the fundamental (muda) thing, can it? You can appreciate it only when you reach that state and experience it yourself as to what it is.

The Atma is a subtlest (sookshmatam) thing, and the regions outside of the Atma are subtler (sookshmatar). So ‘we’ saw everything up to the subtler (sookshmatar). Now since speech does not exist at the subtler level (sookshmatar), that is where speech ( vani) ends; all speech ceases. Therefore, ‘we’ have to say, that you need to discern through the experience (anubhav). That is what is said about experience; it is not understood by knowing about it, it is understood through experience. The outcome (nivedo) occurs through only experience.

The Atma Through the Vision of the Atma

Questioner: But Dada, it is said that see ‘the Atma through the Atma’ so what does it mean, to do the darshan (see) of the Atma through the Atma?

Dadashri: By ‘through the Atma’ they mean that you must see the Atma through the worldly atma (vyavaharik atma) that they believe in. But you must bring an instrumental person (nimit) into it. Bring in the instrumental person (nimit) who has seen it. He will take care of your adjustment in such a way, that you will reap its rewards. Otherwise if you try and see it on your own, you will get nothing out of it. That is because your vision (drashti) is based on the physical senses (indriya). And there you will need something that transcends the senses. Unless the Gnani Purush releases you from the indriya gamya (mediated through the senses), and gives you the part that is beyond the senses (atindriya gamya), and changes your vision (drashti); you will not be able to see. That is why ‘we’ change your vision.

The Goldsmith’s Vision Is Always on the Gold

If you have a gold ring that has been taken to the goldsmith many times, the gold in it will become impure. People will say, ‘Why do you wear that ring? The gold is impure.’ So you should ask yourself, the gold has become impure, so what am I going to do now? So if you take the inferior gold to the jeweler, will he scold you? Will he ask you why you ruined it? Would he not tell you that you had spoiled it? No, the jeweler is not out there to scold you. He is there to return it to its pure state. The whole world brings the gold that has become impure, to him.

So he sits down to purify it. He will get a few rupees out of it. He then starts polishing. He does not look at how impure it has become. He does not look at the other metals that are in it; however he does look at how much gold there is. ‘There’s one val (.388gm) of gold in this’ he will say. And the ring itself is three vals. So there is two vals worth of impurity in it. So he tests it on a touchstone. Then the other person will say, ‘I do not want to know the composition, I just want you to make a small ring for my son, out of whatever gold you can get out of it.’ So the jeweler throws it in acid. Will someone that has this knowledge, do this for you or not?

Questioner: The one that has the knowledge will do it.

Dadashri: And if there is no one who knows how to do it, would you take it to the blacksmith? The blacksmith will say, ‘Take it back, and bring me some iron. Why have you brought this gold to me?’ And if you give it to a carpenter, even he will say no. Now when you give it to a businessman and ask him, ‘Could you do at least this much for me?’ He will say, ‘You fool, why do you not go to a goldsmith, or go to a jeweler, why would there be anything here for you?’ Therefore, if you want to purify the Atma that has turned impure, you have to go to a Gnani Purush. He has all the tools and he knows the attributes of the Self (Atma) as well as the attributes of anatma (non-Self). Only the one who knows the attributes of the Self ( Atma) can separate it from the non-Self (anatma); no one else can.

The Scientific Differences between the Real and the Relative

Questioner: Whatever the puzzles and questions that arise, do they all pertain to the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma)?

Dadashri: Yes, it all has to do with the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma). We refer to the life-instilled atma ( pratishthit atma) as the non-Self complex (prakruti). But when we just say the non-Self complex (prakruti) by itself, people do not properly understand it. That is why ‘we’ have called it the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma).

The pratishthit atma is the relative atma, and the other is the pure Soul (Shuddhatma). The Shuddhatma is the realAtma. And the relative atma is a mechanical atma, which is in the form of input-output (puran-galan). If you fill up ( puran) with food here, in the morning you will have to excrete it (galan). If you fill up (puran) with water here, you have to go to the ‘bathroom’ (galan), and when you take a breath (puran), you have to exhale (galan). There is only this input-output ( puran-galan) and the pure Soul (Shuddhatma); just these two things.

Questioner: What is the difference between the relative atma and the real Atma?

Dadashri: The relative atma has arisen out of one’s own wrong belief. When that wrong belief is fractured, one then enters the real Atma. The Gnani Purush fractures all the wrong beliefs, and he instills the right belief. That is called the enlightened vision (samyak darshan ). Therefore, one has the conviction (pratiti) of one’s own Shuddhatma (pure Soul).

Questioner: Is there a difference between the ego (aham) and the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma)?

Dadashri: No. The life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma) itself is the ego (ahamkar). It was you who instilled the life ( pratishtha), and therefore it came into being. And there again, you continue to instill life into it with, ‘I am the body. I am Chandubhai, I am also this woman’s husband, I am even this boy’s father, I am his brother.’ How many kinds of ‘I…I…I…I’s’ are there?

The Gnani Illuminates the Siddhant Naturally

Questioner: When people talk about the Atma, are they referring to the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma)?

Dadashri: Yes, they believe that the atma that has been instilled with life (pratishthit atma) is the Atma. However, that is a wrong belief. Now they do not know that, do they? They are carrying on, believing that the pratishthit atma, ‘is itself my own Atma’. They move ahead, with this belief. To plod along by decreasing the subatomic particles (parmanu) of illusory attachment (moha) one by one, is the step-by-step path to liberation (the Kramic marg). In the step-by-step path to liberation, they call the, pratishthit atma (the atma which hasbeen instilled with life) as the Atma, and here, in the Akram path (step-less marg), we call the fundamental ( muda) Atma, the Atma. So, there is a difference in the vision (drashti) between the Kramic path and the Akram path. In the step-by-step path (Kramic marg), they are right in saying that the Atma is prone to suffering. ‘This suffering, and all these are the qualities and traits (gunas) of the atma’, which is what the step-by-step path (Kramic marg) says; whereas here in the Akram path (step-less marg), we say that suffering and all that, lies in the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma). In the step-by-step path (Kramic marg), that which we refer to as the life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma); they refer to as the worldly interactive atma (vyavahar atma), and it is this atma that interacts in the world, they believe as being the fundamental ( muda) Atma. And this is what they believe they have to make still and steady (sthir), this is what they believe they have to make free of karma. So they believe that this is the atma that has been bound by karma, and it is this atma that needs to be freed of karma. But the fundamental (muda) Atma is not like that. The real (muda) Atma is free of karma. Except you are not aware of this; you need to attain this awareness.

What we are trying to tell you is that you do not have this

awareness. You have this illusion (bhranti). You believe the ‘Self’ (Atma) to be where it is not and where the ‘Self’ (Atma) really is, you are not aware of that. So, realize where the Self (Atma) really is, and if you do, then ‘You’ are free from everything. This is the ignorance (agnan) that needs to be eradicated; otherwise even after millions of years, your ignorance will never go away.

There are twenty-five kinds of illusory attachments (moha), which get charged and discharge. As a rule, the discharge is going to occur, and because of the wrong belief, it will carry on charging. After ‘we’ give you this Gnan here; the charging will stop, and only the discharge will remain.

That is why ‘we’ have given this new word, pratishthit atma (the atma instilled with life). Bhagwan had told people about this, but they did not understand it. Therefore, ‘we’ had to put down the word pratishthit atma,so that people would be able to understand it in their own language. And so that it does not do harm to the Lord’s words; this word pratishthit atma has been applied in this way. That is because you need to understand itin your language. What are you to do if you could not understand?

The Beginning and the End of the World in the Gnani’s Knowledge

That from which the world arises and ends, is called adhishthan. So they will say, ‘Why have they not shown us the beginning and end ( adhishthan) in the scriptures (shastras)?’ No, the Tirthankars have not left anything out. But it is a different story that you do not come across it.

So what did ‘we’ say? What has this world arisen from? It has originated from the atma into which life was instilled (pratishthit atma ), and it also ends in it. The fundamental, original (muda) Atma has nothing to do with this. This is just a deluded vision ( vibhavik drashti) that has arisen.

When the Vision Becomes Pure, It Becomes Absorbed in the Pure

One is an atma that has been instilled with life (pratishthit atma), and the other is the real Atma. The life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma) is a mechanical atma. It can only survive when you eat and drink, and it will stop if you stop breathing. In whatever the life-instilled atma does, when we say, ‘I am doing it’, that is the egoism (ahamkar) that we do, and so another life-instilled atma (pratishthit atma) for the next life is constructed.

The fact is, nothing has happened to the original (muda) real Atma. Others have given you this gift of ignorance (agnan), so all the impressions have cropped up; as soon as he is born, they start calling him ‘Chandu, Chandu’. Now that child does not understand what they are doing, does he? But these people keep endowing him with these mental impressions (sanskar). So, then he starts believing that ‘I am Chandu.’ And when he grows up he begins to say, ‘this is my paternal uncle (kaka) and this is my maternal uncle (mama).’ This is how all this ignorance (agnan) is gifted to him, so the illusion (bhranti) arises.

What happens here, is that one of the Atma’s energies (shakti) becomes covered; the energy (shakti) called vision (darshan) gets covered up. And because the energy called vision (darshan) gets covered, all this comes about. When that vision is restored again, when it becomes enlightened (samyak), one again returns to his original form (muda swaroop). This vision has become deluded (mithya), and that is why he believes that happiness (sukh) lies in worldly things; therefore when that vision is put right, even the belief in worldly happiness (sukh) disappears. There is nothing else of significance that has been spoiled. Only the vision (darshan) has been spoiled, only the sight (drashti) has been spoiled. ‘We’ change that sight for you.

Questioner: So is it just illusion (bhranti) that has happened to the Atma?

Dadashri: The Atma does not have illusion (bhranti); it is just the vision (darshan) that has been covered up. The vision of the real, fundamental (muda) Atma, has been entirely covered up. Because of the external gift these people on the outside give him; the gift of ignorance (agnan) the very moment he is born. They themselves are ignorant (agnani) and they place him on the rung of ignorance . Therefore, he too starts to believe it, and because hebelieves it, the vision (darshan) gets covered. Because the vision gets covered he says, ‘This is my father-in-law, and this is my uncle.’ And I am telling you, that these are all wrong beliefs.

One’s Salvation Is Through the Awareness of the Main Self Form

Questioner: So is that not the same as saying that the Atma has to work towards its own liberation?

Dadashri: The liberation of the Atma has to be done by the Atma itself, which means that fundamentally the Atma is something that is already liberated. However, the atma that one believes in, the atma that has been instilled with life (pratishthit atma), is not really the right belief. The fundamental and real (muda) Atma is already liberated, but the atma that has been instilled with life ( pratishthit atma) is the atma one where he considers his own self to be. When he himself, comes to know that, ‘This is indeed my own form and nature (swaroop), and I am with Knowledge (Gnan), with Vision (Darshan), with Conduct (Charitra)’, then even his liberation will happen. So when one makes a real spiritual effort (purusharth) in this way for one’s own liberation, only then will it occur. But one has to meet the Gnani Purush who will give him the awareness of the nature of his own Self (swaroop), and only then he will be able to make that real spiritual effort (purusharth). And that is when he attains liberation.

Jai Sat Chit Anand

GLOSSARY

Aadarsha Ideal

Aadesh Directive

Aadhari Supported

Aadhi Mental suffering

Aadi Beginning

Aagraha Insistence or stubbornness

Aakaar Shape

Aarop Falsely imputing

Aasan Postures; sitting place

Aashrav Influx of karmic matter

Aashrit Dependent

Aastik Believing in existence of God

Abhedta Oneness

Abhinivesh Single viewpoint

Abhyas Study

Abrahma Non-Self

Achad Still, immovable

Achar Immovable, still

Adabhoot Wondrous

Adhishthan That from which the world

arises and ends

Adhisthata deva Presiding deity

Adhogami Descend

Adhogati Lower life-forms

Adhyatma Spirituality

Adwaita Non-dualism

Adwaita bhaav Non-dualistic intent

Agamya Incomprehensible

Ahamkar Ego

Ahamkari Egotistical

Ajanma Without birth

Ajanma-amar Without birth and death

Akarta-abhokta Non-doer Non-sufferer

Alok Beyond the world

Amal Influence

Anaadi Eternal

Anami Nameless

Anand Bliss

Anatma Non-Self

Anekant All-encompassing and accepting of all points of view

Anitya Transitory

Ansha Fraction

Ansha swaroop Fraction form

Anta End

Antahkaran Internal functioning mechanism in every human being composed of the mind, the intellect, the chit and the ego

Antar vrutti Inner tendencies

Antaratma Inner awakened Self; the interim state Soul, beginning with the conviction of ‘I am pure Soul’ ending with absolute experience

Antaray karma Obstructing karma

Antarmukha Internal vision, Inward focus or vision

Anubhavgamya Experienced

Anubhuti Experience

Ara, Aras Cosmic time-cycles

Ardhadagdha Half-burnt

Aroopi Invisible

Aropit Falsely laden claim

Asankhyat Innumerable, countless

Ashata Unpleasant

Ashirwad Blessings

Ashubha upayogi Inauspicious awareness

Ashuddha Impure

Ashuddha paryaya Impure phase

Ashuddha upayogi Impure awareness

Atindriya gamya Beyond the senses

Atma Brahma (Self; The real Self or Soul)

Atmagnan Knowledge of the Atma, Selfrealization

Atma-nirikshan atma observing, self observation

Atmanishtha Person who is devoted to the Atma

Atmanubhav Experience of the Atma

Atmaroop Form of Atma

Atma-sakshatkar Direct experience of the Atma

Avagaman That comes and goes

Avaktavya Inexpressible

Avaran Covering, veil of ignorance

Avarnaniya Indescribable

Avastha State or Paryaya means phases or state

Avatar Incarnation; birth; life

Avibhagi-avibhajya Indivisible and inseparable

Avinashi Permanent

Avinashi sukh Eternal happiness

Avinashi tattva Eternal element

Avyavahar Non-interactive form

Avyavahar rashi Unnamed state, unidentified state

Badhak Obstruction

Bahirmukhi Directed towards the external, externalized

Bahirmukhi atma Externalized vision of the self

Bandh Binding of karma

Bandhan Bondage

Bapo Superior

Beej Second day of a lunar fortnight

Beindriya Two-sensed

Bhaan Awareness

Bhajiya Fritters, Savory fritters

Bhakti Lord’s worship

Bhautik Worldly

Bhautik jagat Material world

Bhautik sukh Worldly happiness, material happiness

Bhavna Intention

Bhed Separation

Bhed buddhi Intellect that creates division

Bhed Vignan The science that separates the Self from the non-Self

Bhel Savory snack mixture

Bhelvaado Mixed-up

Bhinnatva Differences

Bhogavato Enduring of karmas

Bhokta Sufferer

Bhrama Illusion

Bhrant-gnan Illusory knowledge

Bhumika Place

Binharif Cannot compete with

Brahma Atma , god

Brahma satya Atma is real

Brahma swaroop The Self

Brahmaanand Bliss of the Self

Brahmachari Celibate

Brahmagnan Knowledge of God

Brahmaswaroop Atma

Buddha Enlightened

Buddhigamya Understandable through the intellect

Buddhijanya Based on the intellect

Buddhijanya gnan Intellectually based knowledge

Buddhishadi Those who excessively use their intellect

Chaitanya swaroop Form of the Self

Chana Chickpeas

Chanchal Agitated, restless and active

Charam deha Final body

Chetan The Self

Chetan gnan Knowledge of the Self

Chetan’s mayavi

shakti Illusory energy

Chetan-mun Charging or the living mind

Choth Fourth lunar day

Darasal True

Darshan kriya Act of Seeing

Dasha States

Deevo Light

Deha Body

Dehadharma Nature of the body

Dehadhyas Identification with the body, the consciousness of, ‘I am this body

Dehatita Beyond the body

Deshkaad Present time and space

Deva Celestial beings

Deva dharma Celestial life

Deva gati Realm of celestial beings

Dhaarna Intention, upholding, supporting

Dharma Religion, intent of human life

Dharma dhyan Religious meditation

Dharmas Natures and functions

Dhrauv Preservation

Dhyan Meditation

Divya chakshu Divine vision

Dosh Faults

Drashta Seer

Drashti Viewpoint, vision

Drashya Object to be seen

Dravya Element

Dukaad Famine

Dukh Unhappiness, pain, grief

Durlabh Difficult to attain

Durvasa A sage known for his anger and fierce nature

Dushamkaal (The time cycle wherein there is no unity of mind, speech and action

Dwaita Duality, dualism

Dwaita bhaav Dualistic intent

Dwandva Dualities, Duality

Dwandva swaroop Form of duality

Dwandvatita Above duality, Beyond duality

Ekagra Absolute unity of thought, speech and action

Ekagrata Focused concentration

Ekantik Adherence to one’s own truth

Ekatmata Become one

Ekendriya Single-sensed organism

Ekoham bahusyam I am One,may I be many

Gati Realms of existence

Gatisahayak tattva Element of motion or momentum

Ged bethi Fits; sits well; agrees

Ghee Clarified butter

Gnan bhaav Intent of Knowledge

Gnan kriya Action of Knowing

Gnan prakash Light of Knowledge

Gnan-Darshan Knowledge-Vision

Gnanjanya Gnan Experiential Knowledge of the Self, that arises from Gnan

Gnata Knower

Gneya Known; Objects to be known

Grahan Acquired

Gunadharma Qualities and functions

Gunavaachak Attributes and properties

Gunthanu or

gunasthanak Steps in the spiritual development of the Self

Gupta swaroop Hidden form

Guruttam Superior

Halan-chalan Any kind of movement

Heeyamaan Decreases

Hetu Purpose, goal, aim

Hisaab Account; Karmic accounts

Hoo-panu I am this

Indriya Sense organs, senses

Ishwarpanu State of God

Jaanvar gati Animal realm

Jaati Caste

Jada Non-Self, lifeless

Jada gnan Knowledge of the non-Self

Jada shakti Inanimate energy

Jagat mithya World is an illusion

Jagat satya World is also true

Jalebi Crispy fritters soaked in sweet syrup

Japa Repeating mantra

Jignyasu Seeker

Jiva Life-forms

Jivatma State of the atma with karma and ego, embodied soul, mortal

Kaka Paternal uncle

Kaliyug Current era of the time cycle, where there is no unity in mind, speech and actions

Kalpana Imagination

Kalpant Lamentations and grief

Kalpit Imaginary

Kalpit sukh Imaginary happiness

Kalyan Salvation

Kapat Deceit

Karan Cause

Karta Doership, Doer

Karta- bhokta Doer-sufferer, Doing-suffering

Kartapanu Doership

Karuna Compassion

Karya Deeds

Khichadee Rice and lentils

Khokha Packing

Kinaro Shoreline

Kram Sequential order

Kram-bram Rule or order

Kramsar Progresses step by step in order

Kramvaar Orderly

Kriya Activity, deed

Kriyakand Rituals

Kriyakari Procure results on its own

Krupa Grace

Kshar Perishable

Kshayak Gnan Permanent conviction of Knowledge

Kshayak samkit Permanent conviction of the right belief

Kshetragnya Knower of your location

Kshetrakaar Become one with the location

Kshetras Locations in the universe

Lafra Worldly entanglements

Laghuttam bhaav Humblest of intent

Lakshan Characteristic, distinguishing sign

Laya Extinction, end

Lihat Devoid of thought

Lobh Greed

Lok Worlds; planes of existence

Lok-alok All the regions of the universe and beyond

Loksangnya Knowledge arising from association with worldly people; worldly view

Maan Pride

Maansik anand Mental happiness

Mama Maternal uncle

Mamata My-ness

Manobud Power of the mind

Manodharma Nature of the mind

Mantra Sacred word

Manushya Human being

Marma Meaning

Matbhed Difference of opinion

Matt Opinion

Maya Illusory attachment

Moha Intoxication of illusion

Mokshadata Giver of liberation

Muda Real

Muda chetan Original Chetan; ‘real I’

Muda sthan Original place

Muda tattva Fundamental element

Muda vastu Original element

Mudd Impurity

Mudhatma Unaware of the Self

Mukta Liberated, free

Mukta purush One who is liberated

Murti Statue, idols and iconic representations

Naad Sound

Naad brahma Sound of brahma

Naam smaran Name to recite

Naastik Who believes that God does not exist; atheist; without existence

Naimitik karan Instrumental cause

Nandiswar Standing posture on the bull

Nark Hell

Nark gati Infernal realm

Nashavant Perishable

Nigod Infinitesimal, imperceptible dormant living entities, awaking and entering the path of evolution

Nihshabda Wordless

Nihshank Free from doubt

Nirabhimaani Devoid of excessive pride

Niradhari Independent, not supported

Niragraha Non-insistence on one’s own truth or viewpoint

Niragrahi Without insistence

Nirakar Formless

Niralumb Independent

Nirashrit Independent

Niravaran Veil-free, free of coverings

Nirguna No attributes

Nirikshan Observe

Nirjara Discharge of karmic matter

Nirlep Untouched, unsmearable, unanointed

Nirlep bhaav Pristine and untainted

Nirnaya Decisions

Nirpeksha Without dependency

Nirvikalp purush Egoless being

Nirvikalpi Egoless person

Nirvikari Free from passion

Nischay Resolutions and decisions

Nischay atma Self

Nischay Gnan Knowledge of the Self

Nischetan-chetan Living-non-living

Nischetan-mun Effect or discharging mind

Nishpakshapati Impartial and does not side with any viewpoint

Nishtha Faith and devotion

Nitya Eternal

Nivrutti Inactivity

Niyam Discipline, self purification and study

Niyamraj Governed by Nature

Niyati A fixed precise track towards liberation.

Pai Penny

Pakshapati Partiality

Panchindriya Five senses

Panchklesha Fear of death

Pantha Sects

Parabrahma Absolute god

Paripurnata Full completion

Parivartan Changes

Parmanand State of eternal bliss

Parmeshwar Absolute self, absolute god

Par-ramanata Engulfed in the non-Self

Par-satta Dependent on other external things, controlled by something else

Paryaya Phases

Paudgalik Non-Self complex’s

Potapanu ‘I-ness’

Pradesh Locations

Prakash Light

Prakruti Mind-speech-body complex

Pramaata Illuminator

Praman Quantity, proportion

Prameya Contained space; receptacle

Pranayam Breath control

Pratishtha Instillation of life

Pratishthit atma The belief of ‘I am Chandubhai’, relative or charged self, relative self

Pratiti Conviction

Pratiti bhaav Intent of conviction

Pratyahaar Sense control, control over the senses

Pratyaksh Direct

Pravrutti Actions, activity

Prerana shakti Internal urging or energy of command

Preya Worldly happiness

Pruthvikaya Earth-bodied life-forms

Pudgal parmanus Non-Self complex

Puja Worship

Punarjanma Next life

Puran-galan Input-output

Purna Complete

Purna bhaav Ultimate goal

Purnahuti Absolute state, Completion

Purnatva The state of being complete, the absolute Self, absolute state

Purusharth Spiritual effort

Rajo guna Passionate traits, characteristic of passion

Roopantar Change in form

Roopi Visible

Rupak Coming into effect, materialize

Rushi-munis Ancient sages

Sa-aadi Beginning of right vision

Sa-anta The end of the right vision

Sabhaan avastha State of consciousness

Sachar Motion, movable

Sacharachar Movable-immovable

Sadhan Resource, tool, means

Sadhana Spiritual endeavor

Sadhya Goal

Sahaj Natural and spontaneous

Sahajik Natural and spontaneous

Saiyogo Circumstances

Sakal parmatma Absolute Self from all aspects

Sakshatkar Direct experience

Sakshibhaav Witnessing

Samadhan Inner satisfaction

Samadhi Oneness with the pure Self, state of bliss, unaffected by all external turmoil

Samaya Smallest fraction of time

Samayik Introspective meditation

Samkit Enlightenment, right vision

Samvar Blocking the influx of karmic matter

Samyak Enlightened, right

Samyaktva Right vision

Sanatan Eternal

Sanatan sukh Eternal bliss

Sangnya Association

Sankalp Decisions

Sankalp -vikalp ‘My-ness’ – ‘I-ness’

Sankhya Number

Sankhyat Can be counted; enumerable

Sankhyat guna Enumerable properties

Sansar The worldly life

Sansari Worldly people

Sanskar Impressions

Sant Purush Saints and spiritual leaders

Sapeksha Relative, dependent

Sarvansha Complete

Sarvavyapi Omnipresent, everywhere

Satchitanand Embodiment of eternal bliss

Sat purush Self-realized person

Satsang Spiritual company, spiritual discussion

Satta Control

Sattva Goodness and awareness

Sattva guna Characteristic of virtue

Satya Truth

Satyug Time cycle of unity in mind, speech and actions

Shabda Word

Shabdaroop Form of words

Shakti Energy

Shanka Doubts

Shastras Scriptures

Shata Experiences the pleasant

Shata vedaniya

karma Pleasure experiencing karma

Sheth Businessman, merchant; employer

Shiva Atma (Self)

Shiva buddhi Enlightened intellect

Shivalaya Temple of Shiva

Shraddha Faith, belief

Shreya Spiritual bliss

Shrota Listener

Shruta vani Knowledge from hearing the speech of enlightened beings

Shubha upayogi Auspicious awareness

Shuddha Pure

Shuddha paryaya Pure phases

Shuddha upayogi Pure applied awareness

Shuddha-buddha Pure and enlightened

Shuddhatma Pure Soul

Shunya Zero

Shunyavastha Devoid of thought

Siddha Established

Siddha lok Location of liberated souls

Siddha shila Place of the liberated souls

Siddha sthiti Absolute liberated state

Siddhant Irrefutable principle, doctrine

Siddhas Liberated souls

Smaran Recitation

Sohum I am That

Sookshma Subtle

Sookshmatam Subtlest

Sparsha Touched

Srushti Creation of the worldly life

Sthavarkaya Immoveable bodies

Sthir Steady, still

Sthirata Stillness

Sthiti Existence

Sthitisahayak tattva Element of inertia or immobility

Sthool Overt, gross

Sugam Understand

Sukh Happiness, pleasure, bliss

Swa-bhaan Awareness of the Self

Swabhav Nature

Swabhavik sukh Natural bliss

Swadharma True nature of the Self

Swa-dhyan Contemplating on its own Self

Swarg Heaven

Swa-swaroop One’s own nature

Swatantra Independent

Syadvaad Speech that does not hurt the ego of any living being

Taady Toddy; fermented palm juice

Taan Physical importance

Taar Link, connection

Takalaadi Easily broken and fragile

Tamo guna Characteristic of darkness or inactivity

Tanmayakar Being involved

Tapa Penances and austerities

Tarantaaran purush Saviour

Tattva Elements

Teukaya Fire-bodied life-forms

Tiryancha Animals and plants

Treej Third lunar day

Trigunatmak Possessing three qualities: sattva, rajas and tamas

Trikaad Past, present and future

Trikaadi bhaav Continuous intent

Trividh taap Three-fold sufferings

Tyaag Renunciation

Udaseen Detached and indifferent

Udhaar ‘On credit’

Upadhi Affliction from external sources

Upari Head

Uparis Superiors

Upsham Suppressed

Urdhvagami Rise upwards

Utkranti Theory of evolution

Utpaad Origination

Utpatti Origin

Vakragati Devolution

Vakta Speaker

Vani Speech

Vardhaman Increasing

Vartan Behavior

Vastu swaroop Elemental form

Vastutva Elemental nature

Vetta Knower

Vibhavikta Unnaturalness

Vignan Swaroop In the form of science

Vikalp Wrong belief

Vikalpi satya Truth through the ego

Vikshep Illusion

Vinashi Perishable, temporary

Vinashi satya Relative truth

Viparit Intellect is misguided and contradictory

Viparit buddhi Deluded intellect

Vishesha parinam Extra result

Vitarag Devoid of attachment and abhorrence

Viyogi Comes to an end, short-lived, transient

Vrutti Tendencies

Vyadhi Physical suffering

Vyatirek guna Extraneous properties

Vyavahar atma Atma that interacts in the world

Vyavahar jiva Soul that interacts in the world

Vyavahar rashi Life-form that has identity

Vyaya Destruction

Yama Moral codes

Yamraj God of death

Yogya Eligible

Yojana Planning


Aptavani-8

“Aptavani 8” is the eighth in a series of spiritual books titled “Aptavani”. In this series, Gnani Purush (embodiment of Self knowledge) Dada Bhagwan addresses age-old unanswered questions of spiritual seekers. Dadashri offers in-depth answers to questions such as: “What does karma mean, and what is the law of karma?”, “How was the world created, and what is the journey of souls?”, and “Who am I, and who is the ‘Doer’ (ego definition)?” Dadashri also provides profound explanations on: “What is spirituality?”, “How can I experience the spiritual power of my pure Soul?”, “What are the signs of spiritual awakening?”, “How may I attain spiritual enlightenment and lead a spiritual life?” For those wanting to learn how to become more spiritual, Dadashri describes how to attain the Self - explaining that the knowledge of Self is spiritual awakening, and the beginning of true spirituality.

  • ISBN: 9789385912986
  • Author: Dada Bhagwan Aradhana Trust
  • Published: 2016-10-05 15:05:26
  • Words: 131008
Aptavani-8 Aptavani-8